From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from sender4-op-o11.zoho.com (sender4-op-o11.zoho.com [136.143.188.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A30A3B2A4 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 08:57:31 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1666789049; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=dnjgQpoL7sxnTRqlZR3JPwxAIZujjy8Jq8am8U/D+axH2qofFBBA4xshwESPpffA1h1B4uBjD+TFKfbS922lL+wU3lIAVIIrt4teQ7/JIo4tuA5oVoG6Z/zOCbuLEaGRmVAfRHgAvRs6srKywB0Dk2DbfBbPU3fn1cuAiGFrG7U= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1666789049; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=vC0/1QD/QmG5Wrc5fCvLSGZnaS2R6ZX4cMJRIo5ij64=; b=btb/3k35DzuaVocG9M+vh0Qat5+9GSANmmjzPJhR3Yye91uZu4tqwW6mjMGT9Tv/w3seM2eWl4DOns2u9JF8vSqPuMgtZ16kRjqi/AfNVH1zAwlTbdv4q9Sk+yXk3joFMoiIi5J0HcznhbTyHjXFXFqTfYsivihGerYNxK4nkDQ= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=phillywisper.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=mjs@phillywisper.net; dmarc=pass header.from= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=mail; d=phillywisper.net; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; b=PnzQBXDb4kBX7gjVWc1jC4jb1hnA2/KuPLd7w4EVTpzTr3Gtg/owMg1hDh/zaqqRrriKccOA04ut g6LxHYz74vyZD2MM+N2GpVw6+8JYFNlnnrPmrt3PJCWY3olmGYztwAjmqXrtNyfCEAWAyWFWXeRv 2NmjAHnXShqZBKOMhfA= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1666789049; s=mail; d=phillywisper.net; i=mjs@phillywisper.net; h=Date:Date:From:From:To:To:Cc:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:Reply-To; bh=vC0/1QD/QmG5Wrc5fCvLSGZnaS2R6ZX4cMJRIo5ij64=; b=dvP3Nzafk22mobAKEd89mLbpvF5qQuXJTEtubaXuqhrz/XNdG1ZyiBShVB4a/5FH nUKVT7Y4CTtmu0lFMhAlMK+YgdF1kuOuPEVNvPMNR8nIx9kwZDG4Rg1r0age34iqT1b jO/uBzC+c5ISBCLSkEAbNkb8civ1OA0NgxCB3Njs= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1666789045886280.35426752987246; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 05:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 08:57:25 -0400 From: Mark Steckel To: "dan" Cc: "libreqos" Message-ID: <184145e766a.dec4784b2159295.1135639168656612048@phillywisper.net> In-Reply-To: References: <184121f0fd2.bb94d86e2041327.1777407868200201335@phillywisper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Importance: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] 10G radios Was: Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:57:31 -0000 Thanks ---- On Wed, 26 Oct 2022 00:09:45 -0400 dan wrote --- >=20 > Siklu is great, service and support are ok.=C2=A0 Aviat is also great, a= bit more money, but better support via their reps. One issue with siklu th= at aviat doesn=E2=80=99t have is that siklu support is all in Israel so you= have some delays but it=E2=80=99s manageable. =C2=A08010 is really hard to= beat.=C2=A0 Also? Siklu pairs up with a dual band dish so you can slap on = an Af5xhd or force 400c and pass that through the siklu for hitless failove= r. Didn't know that Siklu supported the 2nd radio pass-through. Nice feature I'm actually looking at the dual-band Aviat radios. Likely 80/18 or possibl= y 80/11 for a 3.3 Km link. What is your longest 80 GHz link and how does it deal w/ precipitation?=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:29 PM Mark Steckel mjs@phillywisper.net> wrote= : >=20 > Dan, > =20 > ---- On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:22:04 -0400 dan via LibreQoS=C2=A0 wrote --= - > =C2=A0>=20 > =C2=A0> As far as FSO, interesting but 80Ghz is basically better in eve= ry way and those radios are coming down in price pretty quickly.=C2=A0 =C2= =A010Gbps FDX link on siklu 8010 is under $6k if you have a good rep.=C2=A0 > =20 > Do you have any experience with Aviat or other 80 GHz radios? Planning = to purchase some links in the next few months and I'm look for unbiased inf= o. > =20 > Thanks > Mark > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =C2=A0> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:57 AM Dave Taht dave.taht@gmail.com>= wrote: > =C2=A0> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 4:25 PM dan dandenson@gmail.com> wrote: > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on vario= us techs and > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 = mile shot to > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at t= he people trying > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor try= ing to ship 60 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> with *really good antennas* into the office market... > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > I have extensive testing with almost every gear out the= re. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain.=C2=A0 Longes= t shot on network right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we = push a solid 300Mbps across this with zero fade.=C2=A0 Actually gets a tiny= bit better in the rain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all th= e noise so it's a minor improvement. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550M= bps.=C2=A0 And a 10 miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 = unidirectional in 80Mhz.=C2=A0 No rain fade.=C2=A0 Lots of af5xhd and force= 4x links in different distances.=C2=A0 We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP = for price, ie LTU AP=C2=A0 LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP.=C2=A0 Works well enou= gh though this product is susceptible to noise more than any other we use. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per= link node to node or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quit= e-released mid CPE.=C2=A0 Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and= my m2 macbook with nperf UDP. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better.=C2= =A0 AF 'LR' and 'XR' rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down = too much to be usable.=C2=A0 Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Ubiquiti Wave, legit APCPE out 2km and never fails over= .=C2=A0 4km w/ wifi6 failover.=C2=A0 Fantastic product... probably the one = to beat. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m = AP to nRay.=C2=A0 Can get a little more but it's really close and rain fade= gets you.=C2=A0 These have 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY pu= sh 300m on the small and 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a y= ear in 5Ghz failover. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't= going to noticably fade.=C2=A0 MOST fade in these bands is actually therma= l ducting 'turning' the beam off aim. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands.=C2=A0 chan= nels 1-4 are short range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have li= nks stay up.=C2=A0 channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, only = ubiquiti really playing in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 suppo= rt is at a lower output power so it's 'ok'.=C2=A0 Tachyon coming into this = space as well, but unproven and AFAIK zero beta deployments. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today with a well built net= work and good AP/Antenna choices, <=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech.=C2=A0 techni= cally a bit more, but with reasonable ratios this is about right > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta users.=C2=A0 OFDMA+= MUMIMO is really delivering here. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh= , twice that with upcoming channel bonding.=C2=A0 base CPE 1Gbps port, mid = 2.5gbps port, long 10Gbps port(s).=C2=A0 Build out model here is for 'In th= e rain' so no effective fade if built right.=C2=A0 if built wrong, fade to = death. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave.=C2=A0 <=3D800Mbps.=C2= =A0 Technically a bit more but I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR t= o do it.=C2=A0 I can however get 2 customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across th= e AP.=C2=A0 Plan with built in fade and intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km= .=C2=A0 =C2=A0Acceptable in Montana. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 Thx for such a deep dive! How about Tarana? > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 How does "Terragraph" derived tech tie back into shipping= products? > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 I've been involved with a bunch of other highly speculati= ve > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 technologies over the years. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 # Free space optics > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 Koruza showed promise at one point: http://www.koruza.net= / > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 Google's been trying to line up folk for this for a while= : > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 https://x.company/projects/taara/ > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 # Radios > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 ... I appreciate the data on all these radios, their rela= tive > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 performance and range. This stuff needs to=C2=A0 end up i= n > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 a wiki chart somewhere. ? > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 ... but it's not knowing the buffering on em that bugs me= the most. :/ > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 Got all kinds of measurement tools for that > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 crusader, in particular, is coming along. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 packet caps from iperf sessions... > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 flent to a raspi on the other side of the link... > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 # Still a hardware guy at heart > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 Back in 2013 I had thought hard about entering the market= for radios > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 in the 11ghz (and wispa just freed up a lot of space in t= he 10? or 12? > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 band for future use) licensed spectrums, but I couldn't s= tomach > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 working with qualcomm again. I have some hope a mediatek = might get > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 into that, and I could work with them. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 anyone got devices that can use channel 172 yet? That jus= t got freed up too. > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 --=20 > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia wo= uld work: > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-ac= tivity-6981366665607352320-FXtz > =C2=A0>=C2=A0 Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > =C2=A0> _______________________________________________ > =C2=A0> LibreQoS mailing list > =C2=A0> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > =C2=A0> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > =C2=A0>=20 >=20