From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail1.bemta37.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta37.messagelabs.com [85.158.142.113]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C2023CB4F; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 08:29:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprCKsWRWlGSWpSXmKPExsXSsnPBFl2NxZI pBud/i1j0/7rPatHWOY3N4uf+Z4wWT+8IWPQc6me3mHNoPbPFx8VPmS3WLt7C6sDhsXPWXXaP 7RfPMHl82XuSzaNlzh7mAJYo1sy8pPyKBNaMtVNXMhXcFKhoO/+XqYHxJm8XIxeHkMBGRomOf ydYIJz5jBJfT+1ggnBOMko8Wf8NKMMJ5CxmlHj1RBYi0c4o0fj7CztIgkVAVWLRjK3MIDabgI HExJ//2LoYOThEBAwlpuxLBalnFrjGJLFg/RE2kBphoJqb+w6B2bwCFhIvrnexQyyQk7jY8gX KrpFo3v6ICWQOr4CgxN8dwiBhZgEtiRv/XoKFmQWkJZb/4wAJcwoESmx5d595AqPgLISGWUga ZiE0LGBkXsVoXpxaVJZapGtkoJdUlJmeUZKbmJmjl1ilm6iXWqqbl19UkqFrqJdYXqyXWlysV 1yZm5yTopeXWrKJERg1KcVp+3YwdvT91TvEKMnBpCTK+8tEMkWILyk/pTIjsTgjvqg0J7X4EK MMB4eSBO/D+UA5waLU9NSKtMwcYATDpCU4eJREeJfMBkrzFhck5hZnpkOkTjEac6xtOLCXmeP bxpN7mYVY8vLzUqXEeW8tBCoVACnNKM2DGwRLLJcYZaWEeRkZGBiEeApSi3IzS1DlXzGKczAq CfNWLwCawpOZVwK37xXQKUxAp8TNkAA5pSQRISXVwJR/t2TJihzn2RE732luKynhveh3fnUQw 1KLEy9YI6UbPb4rTLQ64XfQTvtaudq/wgdHRBaqBC849uyxaTSvVO/efy3vitZ8smZfnezY4+ B6b60k22G1U6enbdSV65jFLSL67JjIXtmDsd8+Cj3XO23QfKXBTeuAetDUuemz926UFr00s+t HX8OJYz8rWxqecU2qZP3VEzFT+7pd1qOwjBkei9d0zi1mEdyXFuJawzcr+SCH14ZTZr+qOi2/ +52W23J6z5TSth2Wb99vm3H2U+SO1P6zE3sML8v2J4gxvLnhXy+euFs1r/VXkVSNjP6XK3K7I u68c5IVKgvUO2Tb8sx0mvpH8Ru3nFtOeET9y1ViKc5INNRiLipOBAAy26WmpwMAAA== X-Env-Sender: brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-12.tower-722.messagelabs.com!1679401767!100604!1 X-Originating-IP: [132.185.160.180] X-SYMC-ESS-Client-Auth: outbound-route-from=pass X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 9.104.1; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 11140 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2023 12:29:28 -0000 Received: from mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (HELO mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk) (132.185.160.180) by server-12.tower-722.messagelabs.com with ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted SMTP; 21 Mar 2023 12:29:28 -0000 Received: from gateb.lh.bbc.co.uk (gateb.kw.bbc.co.uk [132.185.132.11]) by mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 32LCTR4D006148; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:29:27 GMT Received: from mailhub1.rd.bbc.co.uk ([172.29.120.129]) by gateb.lh.bbc.co.uk (8.15.1+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id 32LCTRuw025209; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:29:27 GMT Received: from sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk ([172.29.120.68]:53394) by mailhub1.rd.bbc.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1peb7H-0004SG-9K; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:29:27 +0000 Received: from sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk (8.13.8+Sun/8.12.2) with ESMTP id 32LCTRM0016162; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:29:27 GMT Received: (from brandon@localhost) by sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk (8.13.8+Sun/8.12.2/Submit) id 32LCTQ4F016161; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:29:26 GMT Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:29:26 +0000 From: Brandon Butterworth To: Frantisek Borsik Cc: brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk, dan , Michael Richardson , bloat , Rpm , Dave Taht via Starlink , libreqos , rjmcmahon Message-ID: <20230321122925.GA15495@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> Reply-To: brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk References: <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Starlink] [Rpm] On FiWi X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:29:31 -0000 On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 10:21:10PM -0700, Frantisek Borsik wrote: > Even at Friday evening Netflix time, there?s hardly more than 25/5 Mbps > consumed. Today. Today has never been a good target when planning builds that need to last the next decade. Fibre affords us the luxury of sufficient capacity to reduce the infrastructure churn where we choose to. > Also, the real improvements that will be really felt by the people are on > the bufferbloat front (enterprise as well as residential) That's a separate matter and needs addressing whatever the delivery technology and speed. > If there?s just single one talk that everyone should watch from that > Understanding Latency webinar series I have shared, it?s this one, with > Gino Dion (Nokia Bell Labs), Magnus Olden (Domos - Latency Management) and > Angus Laurie-Pile (GameBench): > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmcWyIVXvg&t=1358s > It?s all about the 1-25Gbps misconception, what we did to put it out there > as techies, and what can be done to show the customers to change that?40 > minutes, but it?s WORTHWHILE. TL;DL I got "how can we monetise latency", says it all, nothing gets fixed without a premium and the way they were talking that means most do not get the fix as it becomes an incentive to increase latency to force more payment. The speed is immaterial in that. > Now, I hope to really piss You off with the following statement :-P but: > > even sub 5/1 Mbps ?broadband? in Africa with bufferbloat fixed on as many > hops along the internet journey from a data center to the customers mobile > device (or with just LibreQoS middle box in the ISP?s network) is feeling > way better than 25Gbps XG-PON. The only time the XG-PON guy could really > feel like a king of the world would be during his speedtest. So? Some companies will find ways to do things badly regardless, others make best of what they have. Nothing to get annoyed at nor an argument to not build faster networks. I think I may mave missed your point. What are you suggesting, we don't build faster networks? A new (faster) network build is a great opportunity to fix bufferbloat. brandon