From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2135F3B2A4; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 11:27:06 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1666798025; bh=2m2CddK4TsnGzW/tMMG7SZg+kIspEzWmlylHmg4u1k4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=fPBXAudAJ+THj0yl5mQyuB+CQorf6EOoL0JfpJwIemPFiJPAgep3R8lCycb0JQe8k VYTwlyfib0Qyii4B5c9olk6CjKwTgDOFKnXoGlS39X2iR0niu3xDLQOjN/9S0YiXDO N1rHudbyrwvDTtYTJfXJBG/7KwtARQTG6T0TJYEUg2i1+A8Z8treUctIHOo3oe4CC4 /sPkkAuBh2Y2uk2sp4b9nFdAbGo5VbS1MQxAokA/fG7kDmG5BeHr2B7zm3SITHwHCG R0pURjCH02UbxgQ2LmCvtrZYPD/uleir+XiqMKTeIWOQXrQVMLv8zz18mqB69JiDYj VtYX0CFVwlH4Q== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([84.157.42.192]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxUnz-1oyUpU117h-00xvZp; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 17:27:05 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 17:27:03 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Rpm , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2C3CDDC5-DEE6-4F96-8B2F-60FF093EE412@gmx.de> References: To: dan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:CMwwC1jxmzfNhYjo0dqOKpZkN0+l2gfqz03g2/v9oKMy2iphF+D 77vTELU8oOqSxhzy+tkTZcHB8GB/MIhEgmDY12LStc+h/BVojY3Yidbg4XhgCF9KqjxY0Fa POUBW3eAuLe65DDwoDubMUIzrDA7EVkGrfauGQIH/uDt8DoVl/nXfcTLxleofAQPGtXcW81 OO6ppJiII5Rak/GY+bOaw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:3RO4PWpwgog=;w+wKv9/F2198HK6+AvdsgfYvtKo RIoEDk5cmY7IzMKCjU+fSmNydzZuxtjd+7NOc0ji75H2tp9y2qiZV8Vqdy9VPEONf0juYYAu2 mCs5WpBI1sc53ZGxnZpvFMBphHPtC01OMuZkd2VE/5T3rV8zFWwKeeCFm5kym4F/ZiQOmAmhJ vLONL5ng7nhjaVyyUgX85bSl/zpVgB8QUtYFf1P2OG0uKoXHQRHSXHHBTv1EriWt/2YIoR1E3 ItHkr5rTWJnxcPt/88ecxV1mxJ1kjEgsENd8rdGw8OgtViZQMzLzq5uPP4F6v4ko0oVo7e5pa MXnHjV5MqNI+Vz0kqaJIEwKuP6+aA/mUDvAoVXv++J41FY9MxopRq+Rmi8+Zg9je5yIwttnxH n30VX6bqegIHxcbF/tViWUliAvXdzkpPvAk4q2e5uSXDzJHArHo11c/pbbhtO+burf32aGWmj JOEJLJVF3kqdbRDcy/uH17OPs88UoJIJzHabB1dCIZ9A5XMWjc9D72dJmywjCP3nfxquVom8K msi+ymdVs40YkDZ+0rIxXuAqrGOdxlMINgqdZfAH1C35LXuRKuMsv5A9W3Oqo98eNYgSTHVNv KIITiEJAvP5MiCvMNPEIS3CJG2Lw2t6FD3/pg59iZYiLw1rCILVdWxUamGNWcz4ladkniLua/ +GMBVP3lnKX2F2hCTVrMEsDStJRpTUek0dxSNOk0pMwjqXSW4UV5RzKUH1je/xVUJ0Wv0oXWc ZgKncYn6bfXE7Pdy3AZBd3TVj9o2nNstvksDLTBu5+UifsakagPaL59StNyG99QkVRwOqR1Ir rNWtlzYdX8AD9WmzlL2O/QqfaOS4XGaRZJrDx04LFZGEzdEyQRziQeS81BFuZX+Xzx63vnSYo yfymN+Bt0eDtuMryg0BQaOQNQ1AuehamWpURr0TW0oIgA6+BLLPYH7RRzkt/wFfGku17giMbK vW3VsNIP08UGtLDSgMTsJ9U3+RU= X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 12:26:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Rpm] benton's consumer broadband label prototype X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 15:27:07 -0000 Hi Dan, > On Oct 26, 2022, at 17:09, dan via Rpm = wrote: >=20 > Complete fail on a marketing perspective though, this would have to be = legislated and then handled by a third party. [SM] Well this is not intended to be a marketing tool, but a = regulatory tool to make sure the market works to the benefit of society = (I understand that market members are incentivized to skew the market = mechanism to their advantage, this is why working markets need equally = working regulation, just like competitive sports require = umpires/referees). So yes legislation might well be required, but that = would not be a sign of failure, no? > No one is going to put out essentially a warning label that says = 'poor' or 'marginal' in any category for a product they sell. I = wouldn't, and we have LTE services to get to people with no other option = and they are quite happy, it would be detrimental to hand them a sheet = that says that the service is actually 'poor'. [SM] True, but e.g. in Germany ISPs are required by law to = publish their contracted rates in a pre-described fashion pre-sale and = are actually held responsible to some degree to actually deliver the = promised rates. (Well, not really, but consumers can get a cost-free = right to immediately cancel their contract or reduce their payments = commensurate to the under-delivery of the contracted speed*). What = happens here is not that ISPs need to disclose shitty service but that = the need to declare what they intend to deliver and they are simply held = responsible to actually do so**. *) The first option is already well established and works, the payment = reduction part is ATM still being worked out. **) Unfortunately, the required numbers currently do not include latency = under load or even idle latency... there is still work ahead to convince = the regulatory agency of that. > Also, my trust in the government to decide what's good or bad... = laughable. [SM] Compared to bigger cooperations operating in "free-market" = capitalism? Really there is no alternative to government for that = purpose... > You'd get things like on the example page. 903.5Mbps Median = download speed, 811.8 Median upload speed, gaming rating poor and video = conferencing marginal, on Fios service. I know that's an example, but = it's so spot on what the government might do... [SM] See e.g.: = https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telek= ommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/templates_for_information_sheets.pdf;jsessionid=3D08= 68AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 and = https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Telek= ommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tran= sparenzma=C3=9Fnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf;jsessionid=3D0868= AE15965FB584C81008C96BA15E4B?__blob=3DpublicationFile&v=3D1 for how something similar might look in practice. >=20 > As an operator, I will not implement this unless forced to and then = I'll support lobby efforts to get it removed. [SM] Ad that is why we can't have nice things... ;) No really, I = agree this needs legislative/regulatory backing/teeth to work, but that = is not a failure but simply how our system developed. Regards Sebastian >=20 > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:30 PM Dave Taht via LibreQoS = wrote: > is actually... not bad. >=20 > https://www.benton.org/blog/consumer-driven-broadband-label-design >=20 > --=20 > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > = https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665= 607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm