From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FE813B29D; Wed, 1 May 2024 04:48:12 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1714553288; x=1715158088; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=LFe35l+2impiKVXxtXSSM5ALiqMHl3cn0PBzeTB35fE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=QVwKmpzYPgrlTJQkpjAivQqRwNB3OY7i7FO5lqOXQ487wGA7pkyMcFe1Ng4XZms7 xGdrIs/It8t1ZrpA0prRLoOAZ1qUjN3igkHEHYDBM/QF7tBYQQJGWPKPqRX7urwhc HYUA2ezB8s2ncaa3Ln8+wZnaFmqFCn0i4RuKARwWUwT/BPnCIEeh+v3GZIX84Ertq eoz9g4yizZZkqRXoQq6kw6s/SMTcq3Vy7N24H89kLjPWH3+H86KzKej1LWtWWzpNt ufiDuGguXDqZzIYlXD2nNySJnxu0K9brLmLWyiMe0kk1Q9hT83vPnoGxgG+ElimZa vhbRwZYR/ehkO7/cMA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([95.112.28.254]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MiJZO-1sXbAP4A6Q-00fORa; Wed, 01 May 2024 10:48:08 +0200 Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 10:48:03 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Frantisek Borsik , Frantisek Borsik via Starlink , Eugene Y Chang CC: Dave Taht via Starlink , Colin_Higbie , libreqos User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <1A972680-ECA5-42CA-BE8B-6BBD46FF5E74@ieee.org> <4B96B6C0-FB9A-40DD-9F04-F3F4FD18709E@ieee.org> Message-ID: <438D8F36-C1EF-4274-A7F7-95662BFE4D79@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:qG6VNTNBqVX6Zwr8rfaN+2A1CMekoG3PnZSkxwSzmn5u7ISWJ+Z UM/nxB8pipVsOrgQkMm1CNa8STGvEqRqMszd9MYV69/Pz4DEXToaLYTCFgKXeQ2q+ivDmEF 8yxpPqnqiazhuPjIxkLCz2uVP/pYZGVtHMbJtipG6mAUGKUVvuFpmAdOvhPAQEjlIlff9pE iDc3f0a/1rxB3NFxB5v4w== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:csq64Yg/kvg=;wyQTut95z97riEOQ6084bCAunWv ed5Sr+LwbN+azW+n0ko0QuD4cSO8VWttI9kOe70wSfmvij7Ajv2O9Rm/0bkntd1H/MIRxIT/8 F10wQdLSlK6fO9OvUN3eiwKOboa33TErmCAv6oFmIPRvnHW/dkiJShBUSbvQBCkupVb83nw5p 5GeHOwlxcKLqvIvFdgQNjuXTrT2eN5D/c8y8wKTWl5PYjKWA7qMa8ATi62B+RvCD+3StonevC mY2TcoHqVzJO0bh2QdTRjXzQeTz4G34UevcMHbP69Mm0AHyKGaHYCT5px43q6BUIUJ1UqKAAD Q5qABDUIIIlt+0VFKC8YaCtMxkM/f3rD4QS3vtruhznJdDRS28Ht59RWdlhjUFTUjQX88Zdp6 J+ucIGLWw8/gM8QwE/0zaHZWbxS195taWlPRSxWftONSU1a9hBUMgJ8JnAI1egasuwM5XNiMu n3FqUZB9b6CVXztGk/qWNFICJCAyplRIhvw9dHmjlGfqjnBpzaLPUql+aE3k1ALBv10QEDshL qXF30sT9SEto3079iJ4PUG60u1nSfLOP7jpEIbI+c7+QPucD0N2/yyFGHp8Ik0sgfkozeDOv4 1SuAqNYTtK5Aiv2Q4azawF6TyHH3r+yDH3kb548jMuc5iHAMdIH45mCzggkDchwxHwYK98Efg UZL/27XDm4BhuWjep4Lj6Rs3JHsP+ed+bC6x3YW6IDLEfy3jNnnp2uyy3dkyX/URJe1Bvv4kj kWUt+vuFh12r+lQHpM9VIX+sdKaoR9xc874qQ9VdSPaJKlmcu7hlzWuMnZb+y61HyYAY4+BCv DippCcOFQwgGkFIjltCMLwect4La7wE76uR7F8wVCTvWg= Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] =?utf-8?q?=5BStarlink=5D_musings_on_disruption_and_com?= =?utf-8?q?petition_=5Bwas=5D_It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 08:48:13 -0000 Hi Frank=2E On 1 May 2024 09:27:37 CEST, Frantisek Borsik via Starlink wrote: >Basically, Eugene, the situation you are describing is calling for a >competitor to disrupt them! [SM] Not a big fan of the silicon valley nomenclature=2E=2E=2E 'disruption= ' evokes thoughts of 'revolutionary' yet what typically happens is rather '= evolutionary' once one looks behind the marketing/hype=2E=2E=2E and that is= not a bad thing, as real revolutions can be quite painful=2E That said, sure if the incumbents leave sufficient specialized demand unfu= lfilled that opens a niche/opportunity for competitors, but that IMHO is on= e of the core promises of market economies, and nothing that silicon valley= created/realized de novo, no? > >This is such an old story - so many ISPs, especially WIPSs, started just >because they either didn't have any option or all those options available >were really terrible=2E [SM] Exactly, under serving real demand creates opportunities for those wi= lling to step in! > >Don't you want to pick up the glove? :P [SM] I would be terrible at it, for sure ;) but most importantly, the situ= ation in Germany is not that bad, even without considering starlink (which = given its relative high price, still leaves room for competitors)=2E Only 5= -10% of households are clearly underserved, in that they do not even get fu= ll sync with ADSL, and these tend to be far from the next CO and cabinet, s= o these are expensive to connect no matter the technology=2E=2E=2E The EU (optimistic) plan to hook everyone up via FTTH until 2030 is going = to be god sent for those households, and since most of these will be built = with federal grants they come with (not fully specified) OpenAccess regulat= ions, that might actually allow real competition in offering IA services ov= er those fibers=2E But the same looming FTTH built out also makes it tough = to invest much in alternative technology to reach those households in the i= nterim=2E > >All the best, > >Frank > >Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > >https://www=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/in/frantisekborsik > >Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > >iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > >Skype: casioa5302ca > >frantisek=2Eborsik@gmail=2Ecom > > >On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:53=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang >wrote: > >> Frank, >> Thank you=2E What you suggest makes sense if it was objective! >> >> In my neighborhood, the ISP=E2=80=99s organization will feel they have = nothing to >> learn from outsiders=2E (Worst, both major ISPs are just a subsidiary o= f >> another organization=2E They just implement corporate standards=2E The = local >> managers are not motivated to deviate from their corporate marching ord= ers=2E) >> >> A public promotion (campaign) of modern best practices is needed=2E The= n I >> need to have this campaign spill over to the subscriber community=2E Th= e >> business community needs to be educated that their productivity will >> improve=2E The social leaders need to learn that their community will g= et >> better service=2E Then, and only then, can I see the ISP feeling the ne= ed to >> improve=2E It helps if the improvement is just open-source software on = their >> hardware investment=2E >> >> >> Gene >> ---------------------------------------------- >> Eugene Chang >> IEEE Life Senior Member >> >> >> >> On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frantisek Borsik >> wrote: >> >> Eugene - the easiest thing in the case of your ISP would be tell him ab= out >> us: https://libreqos=2Eio >> >> He can take a look on it, join our support chat and get help if he won'= t >> be able to get it up and running: >> https://chat=2Elibreqos=2Eio/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/ >> >> But most of the ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, it's easy to >> deploy=2E >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Frank >> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >> >> >> https://www=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/in/frantisekborsik >> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >> >> Skype: casioa5302ca >> >> frantisek=2Eborsik@gmail=2Ecom >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink < >> starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: >> >>> OK=2E I need help teaching my ISPs that they can do this without >>> threatening their business model=2E >>> Who can help me? >>> >>> A public demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our (my) neighborhood ISP >>> adopted the lessons from the public demo, most of the latency issues w= ould >>> be solved? What won=E2=80=99t get fixed? How do we make this a widely = adopted best >>> practice? Am I crying over issues that are already fixed? Does this >>> simplify the issues at the FCC? >>> >>> Gene >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> Eugene Chang >>> IEEE Life Senior Member >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave Taht wrot= e: >>> >>> Just fq codel or cake everything and you get all that=2E >>> >>> Libreqos is free software for those that do not want to update their d= ata >>> plane=2E Perhaps we should do a public demo of what it can do for ever= y tech >>> on the planet=2E Dsl benefits, fiber does also (but it is the stats th= at >>> matter more on fiber because the customer wifi becomes bloated) >>> >>> Starlink merely fq codeled their wifi and did some aqm work (not codel= I >>> think) to get the amazing results they are getting today=2E I don't ha= ve the >>> waveform test results handy but they are amazing=2E I feel a sea chang= e in >>> the wind=2E=2E=2E >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 12:51=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink < >>> starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: >>> >>>> Colin, >>>> I am overwhelmed with all the reasons that prevent low(er) or consist= ent >>>> latency=2E >>>> I think that our best ISP offerings should deliver graceful, agile, o= r >>>> nimble service=2E Sure, handle all the high-volume data=2E The high-v= olume >>>> service just shouldn=E2=80=99t preclude graceful service=2E Yes, the = current ISP >>>> practices fall short=2E Can we help them improve their service? >>>> >>>> Am I asking too much? >>>> >>>> Gene >>>> ---------------------------------------------- >>>> Eugene Chang >>>> IEEE Life Senior Member >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink < >>>> starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote: >>>> >>>> Gene, >>>> >>>> I think the lion's share of other people (many brilliant people here)= on >>>> this thread are focused on keeping latency down when under load=2E I >>>> generally just read and don't contribute on those discussions, becaus= e >>>> that's not my area of expertise=2E I only posted my point on bandwidt= h, not >>>> to detract from the importance of reducing latency, but to correct wh= at I >>>> believed to be an important error on minimum bandwidth required to be= able >>>> to perform standard Internet functions=2E >>>> >>>> To my surprise, there was pushback on the figure, so I've responded t= o >>>> try to educate this group on streaming usage in the hope that the peo= ple >>>> working on the latency problem under load (core reason for this group= to >>>> exist) can also be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to ensure the= y >>>> don't plan based on bad assumptions=2E >>>> >>>> For a single user, minimum bandwidth (independent of latency) needs t= o >>>> be at least 25Mbps assuming the goal is to provide access to all stan= dard >>>> Internet services=2E Anything short of that will deny users access to= the >>>> primary streaming services, and more specifically won't be able to wa= tch 4K >>>> HDR video, which is the market standard for streaming services today = and >>>> likely will remain at that level for the next several years=2E >>>> >>>> I think it's fine to offer lower-cost options that don't deliver 4K H= DR >>>> video (not everyone cares about that), but at least 25Mbps should be >>>> available to an Internet customer for any new Internet service rollou= t=2E >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Colin >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Starlink On Behalf= Of >>>> starlink-request@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM >>>> To: starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15 >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:04:43 -1000 >>>> From: Eugene Y Chang >>>> To: Colin_Higbie , Dave Taht via Starlink >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC >>>> Message-ID: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee=2Eorg> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>>> >>>> I am always surprised how complicated these discussions become=2E >>>> (Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind of issues this community = care >>>> about=2E) The discussion doesn=E2=80=99t shed light on the following = scenarios=2E >>>> >>>> While watching stream content, activating controls needed to switch >>>> content sometimes (often?) have long pauses=2E I attribute that to bu= ffer >>>> bloat and high latency=2E >>>> >>>> With a happy household user watching streaming media, a second user >>>> could have terrible shopping experience with Amazon=2E The interactiv= e >>>> response could be (is often) horrible=2E (Personally, I would be doin= g email >>>> and working on a shared doc=2E The Amazon analogy probably applies to= more >>>> people=2E) >>>> >>>> How can we deliver graceful performance to both persons in a househol= d? >>>> Is seeking graceful performance too complicated to improve? >>>> (I said =E2=80=9Cgraceful=E2=80=9D to allow technical flexibility=2E) >>>> >>>> Gene >>>> ---------------------------------------------- >>>> Eugene Chang >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >>> >> >> --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E