From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.lang.hm (unknown [66.167.227.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA2413CBC5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 15:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dlang-mobile (unknown [10.2.2.69]) by mail.lang.hm (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9E817D425; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:33:47 -0700 (PDT) From: David Lang To: dan cc: rjmcmahon , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , bloat , Bruce Perens , libreqos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <48q03o08-ro20-2p59-1644-sp73526024q3@ynat.uz> References: <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="===============6904219503345258652==" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 15:41:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Bloat] [Starlink] [Rpm] On FiWi X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:33:49 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --===============6904219503345258652== Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, they have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, the entire network collapses. Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so it's solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and louder if possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduces the available airtime. I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 100 APs for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendees bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be re-used more readily. in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with wifi too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest possible number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work. and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to your users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and airtime problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber for the uplink is much better. David Lang On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: > Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge > part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try to > overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into > the next home/suite/apartment etc. > > In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output > turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away > (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. > > One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model, > ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires > infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and > accounts for most access complaints. > > Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID > closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and > likely fixed position ) antennas. > > regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem > and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is > already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are > top sellers and top performers today. > > IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of > powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. I have > some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works > fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm > seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n > radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This model, > with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7 > per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by > consumers setup. > > WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and > co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in > early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). > > IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure > to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and > liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by > stakeholders of those networks. > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon wrote: > >> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very >> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to >> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers >> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem >> >> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates >> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the >> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't >> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog >> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block >> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation >> systems, etc. >> >> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and >> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH >> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than >> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add >> a zero (or multiple by 10) >> >> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero >> engineering resources assigned. >> >> Bob >>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon >>> wrote: >>> >>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has >>>> to halt. >>> >>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden >>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next >>> room. >> > --===============6904219503345258652== Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: <4646r1ss-2s1o-5or5-59n6-n76nqo233124@ynat.uz> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: INLINE X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KQmxvYXQgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0CkJsb2F0QGxpc3RzLmJ1ZmZlcmJsb2F0Lm5ldApodHRwczovL2xpc3RzLmJ1ZmZl cmJsb2F0Lm5ldC9saXN0aW5mby9ibG9hdAo= --===============6904219503345258652==--