From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from secmail.pch.net (secmail.pch.net [206.220.231.87]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF5593CB37 for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 03:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from secmail.pch.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by secmail.pch.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4S7XGF5nsKz4xRSV for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 00:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: secmail.pch.net (amavisd-new); dkim=pass reason="pass (just generated, assumed good)" header.d=pch.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pch.net; h= x-mailer:to:references:message-id:date:in-reply-to:from:subject :mime-version:content-type; s=secmail_dkim; t=1697355620; x= 1699947621; bh=8AplwxgU8b9k7nOZjjpPPm6HMH770Kxlfn7LE0LKC+k=; b=t H3uB/EOPwX/yC1rVj4jgLkvg8Ea3BF/qiK5LAXWs7/6X00LqwkIYubocJr4V+oCa iPzqpjedpVQasMzGWxkFAisgXMlLGCFO23WO8fJhWmGwYo/DBzU+eLzaEaQIfzGz z5vOe+RYgqHylvr+QvnbP6QKhvorJ0evb0WkO9RiIpWwejCMwdF3+g1s7q/cxqNz OWs7XbFZs00FkV1f6cEti2MZ4W6ojkM15A5zIZ2IKR31bbd8kXo906eNYhpEy51e 7qE6GdOCx2c4JJKaHuNRfX9xVyrQFasGd2IyzBKf8kHbg3cNImy0gPXkaPZm87mR 2covqiKFP4CsEHfmgh8Rg== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at secmail.pch.net Received: from secmail.pch.net ([127.0.0.1]) by secmail.pch.net (secmail.pch.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 5MP7fR1tykdn for ; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 00:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (itv-02 [69.166.14.6]) by secmail.pch.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4S7XGB6w21z4xRRY; Sun, 15 Oct 2023 00:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_69C95CC6-9318-4F2A-91D1-EB3F867C4C92"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6\)) From: Bill Woodcock In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 09:40:16 +0200 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back!_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_as?= =?utf-8?Q?pects_heard_this_time!?= , libreqos , NANOG Message-Id: <83F0052F-F7D3-45BE-AB02-9FBA20217EFA@pch.net> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 06:13:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] transit and peering costs projections X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2023 07:40:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_69C95CC6-9318-4F2A-91D1-EB3F867C4C92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 15, 2023, at 01:01, Dave Taht wrote: > I am under the impression that many IXPs remain very successful, I know of 760 active IXPs, out of 1,148 total, so, over 31 years, = two-thirds are still successful now. Obviously they didn=E2=80=99t all = start 31 years ago, they started on a gradually-accelerating curve. I = guess we could do the visualization to plot range of lifespans versus = start dates, but we haven=E2=80=99t done that as yet. > states without them suffer Any populated area without one or more of them suffers by comparison = with areas that do have them. States, countries, cities, etc. There = are still a surprising number of whole countries that don=E2=80=99t yet = have one. We try to prioritize those in our work: https://www.pch.net/ixp/summary > I also find the concept of doing micro IXPs at the city level, = appealing, and now achievable with cheap gear. This has always, by definition, been achievable, since it=E2=80=99s the = only way any IXP has ever succeeded, really. I mean, big sample set, = bell curve, you can always find a few things out at the fringes to argue = about, but the thing that allows an IXP to succeed is good APBDC, and = the thing that most frequently kills IXPs is over-investment. An = expensive switch at the outset is a huge liability, and one of the = things most likely to tank a startup IXP. Notably, that doesn=E2=80=99t = mean a switch that costs the IXP a lot of money: you can tank an IXP by = donating an expensive switch for free. Expensive switches have = expensive maintenance, whether you=E2=80=99re paying for it or not. = Maintenance means down-time, and down-time raises APBDC, regardless of = whether you=E2=80=99ve laid out cash in parallel with it. > Finer grained cross connects between telco and ISP and IXP would lower = latencies across town quite hugely... Of course, and that requires that they show up in the same building, = ideally with an MMR. The same places that work well for IXPs. = Interconnection basically just requires a lot of networks be present = close to a population center. Which always presents a little tension = vis-a-vis datacenters, which profit immensely if there=E2=80=99s a = successful IXP in them, but can never afford to locate themselves where = IXPs would be most valuable, and don=E2=80=99t like to have to provide = free backhaul to better IXP locations. -Bill --Apple-Mail=_69C95CC6-9318-4F2A-91D1-EB3F867C4C92 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEm6XJ0FdpKWJHso4lb6RwSyiLf4cFAmUrl2AACgkQb6RwSyiL f4cJOxAAl668aSERTLkZYSlu3F3ycAkBiXsKhNinOn6FSInUVCIGDuzTB4wWZwFY gvpSrxJLHm8oYRCC5cUbU9KkziCuHdO2nV10Uys/d+cwyljd2Z1pZlUUxekm9OW/ Lh7V3daZh1zpXAVgTzCkm8nPLUsrsqPB19Q6HFkjZGwCpj5PXG0YsLkuLo7yEYU+ c37+4UyASB5MuwWAi6VdtPlzwDb+ApSQhXKUrSocZ++fFNt2MNlRprP/mvyQwmWX 1LX5nOffcURbaDHrrHu7b69AjoQ89jeRCZ9cxta6kYbd5VAqRFy40hO8jTIN3tJb Si5/CNZTyID1aSjNsPFECam08UFDx0WasBhHGu2J+YrcrS4rxeFWB02ffN8ZlWPL Hsd7CbgDtnQHZfdfUSgbIO/Dc+/3HkcRRsRzOBHSQGZGeFKU91DShlqOGGFb78dX SQ9+X1PuDfMxjsnxNsZYeJWFrb2way5TjbgZ4Rm3NITTxau5oa6JZpLLEdxs4FNE MjfG97IJJutLnXarDLl17UHQl8V3BKut3TYFLVdtfP/tQr40SbqcHuQS3iM5ayoF 3FPV/rP628sFV2HkDoK3jVQ59ywOF6Fcygpq2uDGOK/zmnVekVI2f5N60WCMFoIF TY/mHNh/xyx1dmOx4FZCwOZWFfMJitEUYlVNpIdSbivHQAOC54U= =c4db -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_69C95CC6-9318-4F2A-91D1-EB3F867C4C92--