From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 530383B29D; Fri, 29 Sep 2023 03:07:40 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1695971255; x=1696576055; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=zoIBOis0J5I7Azbd0wlcqPYWQuKIwRueEfwIe5gcEEQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=Zmg6VjkJtAWI5nq8c6CDu+yWmyox6Hf0kWJNJJKNKDz8HO4Hk+2bJIjp0kDmqEjNoY0OXSjaaP0 jYJx+WVm38hL1IbJvTxPGrwT1mDqQgUfSHIncbJaaqxQ8UI3U4cLyO34bf034lUCxljeXXcJ5z1Tr 6w7vW+Al3ZkU7urxUUKKGak6pp8poYT3ums+OpsHNkK10f6twbGX5iXS6ja7pNk2JNZLrGuYehnxK R+pRYzR7mAIEYVr+D++zr2yTJvZ4P/dWSoRmtm16xUD5qvwPvoZ2lgT+AOm+w2JMD4+lXxjegIQag x7lkIE2BaxTe2IOr4MmdlfXQ6GxUJi+HbsDw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MatVh-1rNO1c1iBv-00cRXD; Fri, 29 Sep 2023 09:07:35 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.4\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 09:07:33 +0200 Cc: David Lang , Rpm , dan , Jamal Hadi Salim , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9243ADCF-2685-4130-A8CD-B81CA4A9D7E2@gmx.de> References: <5so3r00n-31pn-14s7-7775-08731s3s551r@ynat.uz> To: Gert Doering X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.4) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Wvv8pK7t6N1a1B06ZcuMqavQl0kzEPBxmh+ZRSyySvm5KAcAIVM GRmhmfLEKKsayuuiwlW2Yl5TuDsgvR8fJpk44l0Z/x2W0gk6Kjj1224i1n9jQIhH2DqUWV4 rzxAFjnVjZkTvqHzcKTSsbMO2bNTiyIb3tW7Lic7IGERDhIkRyrUCs36XQ6Sq36l7cg3L0Y HKSoyFwSlghpBY0L86CQw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:1p+MjBAZqiI=;Qs02J2/nGFXWrSbi25JGoe+uIhB lN72PtJHx/Plyu5C/75WN797Zy6T2Ug/IsmVxpsUWbl/A1aibtSaR9V6wpx5/x5955VqRUkDU C9sZFMpHFhgD+2FSxGqP9ttp6Xj0mQnT1hw5keOVCben1z8IFFkWHXL2dTT/D5COmYvR5Elqy 0cwccYYMgF8S9Wq4seli12KFiB7NTELLq+UdCicRG6Iqy23iGgUvNn/5HA280AB6a68iE7/Ik vQ5cd5TLd4KBPXSYIpWKx6Dm0BN1Vzy4Ndou36TSHiXmvGoJ0zdAs9TAc4Xk9GoS+Kfv45Os2 Bm3b0rkfOT4LeXtHyAQxPoDzaPy7h1eWQz2eyARns/1q5LvcEY6+kqN89VpWrBY2oYiU74ft6 9C21fO0KOS6bcnsCvm7PfPegsqhv8h6KlLLoKRnIj8od6vHvVeW+n+aoNT0f/nk5Hv+n2yDC6 balY2pSFAxgkfiTmpEhed4G1JP9FOKgbhQpzjEYZ1/E84wnw8F9PnupIrLjg65zkRmIE2Dhbg ZyXCwM1CtmOonTfZaNBZtw0LOmS/8GINEHbl3GbCaFm7w3t4ZheqBBb3ZKySy6SUN3XDc85fd Iju2yDgO2xy6DcC/tkTDHvv1VhUgg0bTJAX91jU1+Euv3zY67cTYQ9DPgy0j/Duh7hYQDaUXH eUJJcADqKAMXaJXe2VlQ2mQs7ZnhsvUrZFTZ70D9kzQvkNuBdYB7xI6VbKXmhgg8DPI0zbWut t/Q0x51SF0VOw7wCQzn0kW69OtqpJeKrEzcww+Ko4dXJz7iy8WGcBQg2Fwj1iKD/a1BO96gsJ MbhVIl8xrlQu68WF4OeB8gbEWPTHrjsNI4TJoDLTlqRHz7As2FlqA5m6wikfa/C+Vz1xQkhMQ fztTG1d9fxOQr3I9dtCnmo42W4IghLzQdE6YBBP/WHaWajDE0+HUq/TzL8sMX7rsyCwJxIzua z3gw6SJFYYf2EhT32zgQVdSopgQ= Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] net neutrality back in the news X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 07:07:40 -0000 Hi Gert, > On Sep 29, 2023, at 08:31, Gert Doering wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 08:24:13AM +0200, Sebastian Moeller via = Starlink wrote: >> [SM] In the EU we have this as a continuous lobbying effort by = big incumbent ISPs (a move to have the large content providers (CAPs) = shoulder their "fair" share of the cost of modernizing the networks*), = why this flys with at least some EU politicians is that the intended = payees of this scheme are all located outside the EU and hence will have = little support by the EU citizenry... (The latter is IMHO not fully = undeserved either, the days of "do no evil" are long behind us and big = tech often forgets that we are all in this together, but I digress). In = the EU one of these days such an effort might actually succeed, as much = as I dislike this. >=20 > And then the local incumbent uses that line of argument to arm-twist > all the smaller ISPs to pay them for traffic into their network... > (and calling up fees well above normal market rates for "transit"). Indeed, but that only flies because the regulators so far only = feel responsible for the end-customer to internet access provider links, = and explicitly exempt AS interconnect from their regulatory efforts. = Given how complicated this can become I have some sympathy for their = position, the national incumbent however plays a somewhat dangerous = game, if he makes things too obvious it will likely result in regulatory = interventions. This is also why the product sold is not "access to our = eye-balls" but access "to the whole internet, including our eye-balls" = yet at a cost that nobody is likely to use to access anything but that = ISPs eye-balls. As much as it pains me that is behavior not untypical = for large corporations these days... Regards Sebastian >=20 > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > --=20 > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, = Michael Emmer > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. = Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279