From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35C62935B93; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 19:11:50 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1762625509; x=1763230309; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=C+wkn0QtaqIDOmBH3gaXI4udHO1TbG7lC09RcOp4vJs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=HetYoq/M+Zy9f8hccZDZnUvMoRIeQUaxcfxJCyBf6va+QbgNWKmEs9VsxAhTqb8g ndqDP7DA2sRhkufm0IJWAVs25dH9QZcJsnb7YRuMyZIYMqR/MYs+raIwCMGaUll4S 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wWF7FoxcHadNTAPCsTIYaKuoee/WS2W6IRWNC1Sklm+J1xxi6SFcr6ZqafOg== Message-ID-Hash: ISI562YBCFHR6UD6PNYHBZIRGD4IO56O X-Message-ID-Hash: ISI562YBCFHR6UD6PNYHBZIRGD4IO56O X-MailFrom: moeller0@gmx.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [LibreQoS] Re: [Starlink] Re: Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi J, > On 8. Nov 2025, at 18:03, J Pan via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > yes, availability (at least two competing network providers with > reliable services), As David already mentioned that gets us a duopoly, but going mildly = higher still results in an oligopoly... As a market realist (that is = someone who accepts efficient market when he sees them, but does not = naive believe in the fairy tales of the invisible hand of the market) I = think that we would be often much better off with a competently = managed/regulated monopoly than with duo- to oligopolies that are = treated as if they were efficient markets... Infrastructure (and at = least access networks are at least infrastructure-ish IMHO) is not = something where the free market typically excels at. > affordability (so the competition to bring the > price and cost down) I agree, but that is really at odds with your first point, to get that = from a market we clearly need to grow the supply side to get out of = oligopoly territory, and I am not sure that that is actually feasible. > and applicability to modern internet applications > (video streaming, conferencing and gaming in addition to email and web > browsing) shall be the user-centric metrics in addition to throughput, > latency/jitter, packet loss, etc I am 100% behind this. I will mention though that I believe that latency = increase under load is a decent proxy for the utility of a given access = link for the usability with interactive applications. Regards Sebastian > -- > J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, = Web.UVic.CA/~pan >=20 > On Sat, Nov 8, 2025 at 8:00=E2=80=AFAM dan = wrote: >>=20 >> I'm starting to see the signs that raw bandwidth is starting to lose >> it's dominance for marketing. It's still the clear #1 ask but price >> is rapidly overtaking speed for our customer requests. >>=20 >> I believe we've hit this era's threshold on throughput needs and >> people have started to notice that 'more' doesn't feel like a faster >> service. >>=20 >> one common scenario that we are using to win customers, in = combination >> with facebook testimonials, is that people have bad experiences with >> wifi and they order a faster service from cable/fiber company and the >> wifi just gets worse. This scenario I think is incredibly common and >> seems to be a catalyst for 'speed isn't everything'. We come in with >> 50-500Mbps of service and solid whole-home wifi and they are >> converted. >>=20 >> I hope we're not to far off from having 'speed' be just a feature, = not >> the entire story. >>=20 >> and yes, we QoE or service with cake via libreqos which is the >> difference between great service and inadequate service IMO. >>=20 >> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:50=E2=80=AFPM J Pan via LibreQoS >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> marketing is even worse. some claim 200mbps because 150mbps down and >>> 50mbps up at peak data rate. of course, this is not the only problem >>> in telecom, but likely the worst >>>=20 >>> nevertheless, there are stats such as 10% inflation for food and 20% >>> for gas, so in total 30% ;-) at this rate, any numbers can be = floating >>> around but none are telling the truth ;-) >>> -- >>> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, = Web.UVic.CA/~pan >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 10:55=E2=80=AFAM Jim Forster = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Exactly so. >>>>=20 >>>> Consumer expectations and service provider marketing may be = influenced by memories of experience when transmission delay did matter. = At one time I was very happy with my home ISDN connection, and even = shared it with my neighbor. At about 128kbs, it was three orders of = magnitude slower than my home fiber link. I=E2=80=99ve not run the = numbers but I=E2=80=99m pretty sure transimission speed mattered for = video, even for crummy quality video, So then when I learned a bit = about digital video, and cable=E2=80=99s 64 QAM 27mbps channels, I got = excited and thought, =E2=80=9Cwow, they could deliver 1mbps service! = And wouldn=E2=80=99t it be cool to have 1M home online at 10x the speed = of ISDN?=E2=80=9D. It was cool! And two more orders of magnitude = later, here we are. >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=94 Jim >>>>=20 >>>> On Nov 7, 2025, at 12:52=E2=80=AFPM, J Pan wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> latency is based on round-trip time, and one-way delay includes >>>> transmission delay, propagation delay, queuing delay and processing >>>> delay. bandwidth does affect transmission delay (or serialization >>>> delay), propagation delay is determined by the link length and the >>>> "travel" speed of the signal, queuing delay is the hardest part and >>>> affected by the buffer bloat a lot, and processing delay is another >>>> variable. of course, transmission delay takes less and less portion = of >>>> the end-to-end delay now due to higher and higher "speed" links >>>>=20 >>>> consumers may mistaken the speed of the link (the "width" of their >>>> pipe) as how fast their internet is (the "length" of the pipe), due = to >>>> the poor terminology we have been using ;-) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> LibreQoS mailing list -- libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to libreqos-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net