From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mr85p00im-ztdg06021701.me.com (mr85p00im-ztdg06021701.me.com [17.58.23.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80D573B29E for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2023 14:38:18 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mac.com; s=1a1hai; t=1695753497; bh=4L2+l3pt3hP/j9i+X25a7O7Kwq5F3i9/saxdx0oDWm8=; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:To; b=n1wTCWUHIo64cxvvG86JHyJo4GayPXj8FByG00A94JE7LYfzp8ILXR+350yHRG/mh kgAF5UTDHq69nkphVHmGPE+3K90oFsbt1AZuGh/ROTeoWuSkQudJTFycAn4wl+A10I pCNSGUMRtJCmiyJMlBP7Rf8LLm9Cyp3Sx3s61gMNk/ESaWIXnCY66e7ENqTgZXj3Md R4iduGU/N4KSiFgTCPBxDdrBPi03BhfvMWnCTD+TVpwxYB6MBlf6/XsIXvi+hGlqyw Ql59ZKOA2u7BtgQOsT5I/Y2Ln9tKfybrAixofBPa/L+kF8qexA79x2DoDOfM+hhRzC y9K9bIoFHHS8g== Received: from smtpclient.apple (mr38p00im-dlb-asmtp-mailmevip.me.com [17.57.152.18]) by mr85p00im-ztdg06021701.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FABD263353A; Tue, 26 Sep 2023 18:38:00 +0000 (UTC) From: Jim Forster Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F913D77D-A32A-410A-9A25-7E3F7035FD3D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6\)) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 14:37:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4p971809-5o95-q69q-3r86-48r742ro3215@ynat.uz> Cc: Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink , "Luis A. Cornejo" , libreqos To: David Lang References: <4p971809-5o95-q69q-3r86-48r742ro3215@ynat.uz> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6) X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: _LhtT8lf53QfDlpHAO-aNWz4uvVbe_jk X-Proofpoint-GUID: _LhtT8lf53QfDlpHAO-aNWz4uvVbe_jk X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: =?UTF-8?Q?vendor=3Dfsecure_engine=3D1.1.170-22c6f66c430a71ce266a39bfe25bc?= =?UTF-8?Q?2903e8d5c8f:6.0.138,18.0.572,17.0.605.474.0000000_definitions?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3D2020-02-14=5F11:2020-02-14=5F02,2020-02-14=5F11,2020-01-23?= =?UTF-8?Q?=5F02_signatures=3D0?= X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1011 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2309260161 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 15:09:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Starlink] Starlink cell capacity (was; tarana strikes back) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 18:38:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F913D77D-A32A-410A-9A25-7E3F7035FD3D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 25, 2023, at 4:11 AM, David Lang via LibreQoS = wrote: >=20 >>>>=20 >>>> = https://www.taranawireless.com/a-comparison-of-next-generation-fwa-vs-leo-= satellite/ = >>>>=20 >>>> Can anyone question these Starlink numbers for cell size, etc? >=20 > I think they have the cell size reasonably accuarate (for now), But if = the cell sizes were of fixed size and unable to be re-used, once there = were enough satellites to provide global coverage, adding more would not = provide any value. But even their first phase includes many times the = number they needed to provide global coverage, so the assumptions around = the capacity being fixed by the initial cell size and a single satellite = covering it cannot be correct. >=20 > I question the assumption that there will only be a single satellite = serving the cell at a time. With directional antennas (including phased = arrays) you can aim both your uplink and downlink. >=20 > Even without having multiple satellites covering a single cell, you = can shrink the cells by having the ground stations further from the = center of the cell aim at different parts of the sky. This is all true (as much as I understand), Worth noting as well, is = that with LEOs if one satellite is maxed out serving a cell, then = getting a second satellite to help with that cell mean adding *lots* = more satellites. If adjacent cells had very different loads then I guess = nearby unloaeded satellites could help out their busy neighbors. But = areas with busy cells close together would mean doubling the number of = satellites and therefore platform Capex. Whereas terrestrial towers can = be densified in busy areas. =20 =E2=80=94 Jim --Apple-Mail=_F913D77D-A32A-410A-9A25-7E3F7035FD3D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Sep = 25, 2023, at 4:11 AM, David Lang via LibreQoS = <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:


https://www.taranawireless.com/a-compa= rison-of-next-generation-fwa-vs-leo-satellite/

Can anyone = question these Starlink numbers for cell size, = etc?

I think = they have the cell size reasonably accuarate (for now), But if the cell = sizes were of fixed size and unable to be re-used, once there were = enough satellites to provide global coverage, adding more would not = provide any value. But even their first phase includes many times the = number they needed to provide global coverage, so the assumptions around = the capacity being fixed by the initial cell size and a single satellite = covering it cannot be correct.

I = question the assumption that there will only be a single satellite = serving the cell at a time. With directional antennas (including phased = arrays) you can aim both your uplink and downlink.

Even without having multiple satellites = covering a single cell, you can shrink the cells by having the ground = stations further from the center of the cell aim at different parts of = the sky.

This is all true (as much = as I understand),  Worth noting as well, is that with LEOs if one = satellite is maxed out serving a cell, then getting a second satellite = to help with that cell mean adding *lots* more satellites. If adjacent = cells had very different loads then I guess nearby unloaeded satellites = could help out their busy neighbors.  But areas with busy cells = close together would mean doubling the number of satellites and = therefore platform Capex.  Whereas terrestrial towers can be = densified in busy areas. =  


  =E2=80=94 = Jim



= --Apple-Mail=_F913D77D-A32A-410A-9A25-7E3F7035FD3D--