Re: [LibreQoS] ookla speedtest results?

[Herbert Wolverson <herberticus@gmail.com>]

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Preseem is a little funky in actually showing any queue statistics, because
it also pounds
your devices with SNMP requests and gathers things like TCP
drops/retransmits from
there (and uses it to try and figure out their hierarchy).

It was actually one of the major problems we had with it - we have a few
EdgeRouters
around, and they have a bug that they utilize ram disk space on a
successful SNMPv2 query.
They don't leak a lot of RAM, just a few bytes per request - but Preseem
pounds the
living daylights of out them, and we had to implement a "reboot all the
EdgeRouters within
30 days" policy to avoid the things silently locking up. Ugh.

I'd love to be able to provide cake at the end-point, but it's not very
practical. Our
customers use a wide range of devices (and CPEs, even a few old M2 devices
still up!), and a "use the router we provide" policy isn't going to fly for
quite
a few of them - they just really don't like that.

I've had UI issues with displaying "drops". Calling it that terrifies our
support
people. I'd love to have another name that conveys the meaning!

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 12:35 PM Robert Chacón via LibreQoS <
libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> > Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks.
> which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks
> would be better.
>
> Yup, in InfluxDB for the stats by Tin (diffserv4) we display true drops as
> (trueDrops = ecn_mark + drops - ack_drops). But we don't do it by sub quite
> yet.
> And ok, drops, marks and drops+marks can be shown instead - by subscriber
> or by Node (AP/Site).
> Dave - is it ok if we graph this data as a percentage of packets sent? So
> for drops, drop / sent_packets ? I just imagine that  would make comparing
> different subscribers' connections easier.
>
> Question for all - is having drops / marks/ drops+marks by
> subscriber/circuit worth the extra modest InfluxDB CPU use? Or should we
> just show those stats by AP/Node?
> If preseem currently offers such stats at a subscriber level we can do the
> same, just wanna be sure I'm not overtaxing CPU.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:14 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS <
> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> Some of the context of my request for libreqos on vs off is from here,
>> presentation in the wee hours, wed morning.
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6989281945868283904/
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:48 AM dan via LibreQoS
>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > we also have a bunch of 25/5.  It would be nice to get some more
>> detailed numbers from ookla tests.
>>
>> +1! We've argued methods with many a provider, and ookla and samknows
>> are new to this game.
>>
>> As one example I don't know if they use decimal or binary mbits!
>>
>> ...
>>
>> ack-filtering in the libreqos case can and will drop acks in both
>> directions, due to the structure of how htb
>> works in this scenario, at any bandwidth ratio. I *think* it does very
>> little harm but I would use the ack-filter
>> not the aggressive ack filter out of caution.
>>
>> Secondly if you are gathering drop statistics from the higher level
>> htb categories, total drops will go WAY up,
>> and it is best to use the cake drop, ack_drop outputs statistics directly.
>>
>> ack_drops have nothing to do with congestion control and should be
>> ignored in most cases.
>>
>> Also I keep hoping more will pull out ecn marks separately. Public use
>> is way up by e2e transports, and I worry that a high ecn ratio is a
>> e2e network error, which might show up as a big backlog.
>>
>> Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks.
>> which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks
>> would be better.
>>
>> An inverse log scale is needed to plot marks, drops, and ack_drops.
>>
>> I'll always be of the opinion that it's best to run cake on egress at
>> the cpe, first, doing all this work before it hits the wire.
>> Are any of you doing that? Openwrt/dd-wrt/firewalla/mikrotik 7.2?
>>
>> >We also have a lot of Eero units out there, so watching for the eero
>> speed test would also be great.
>>
>> eero 5s have cake (and fq_codel on the wifi), eero 6s have a somewhat
>> buggy fq_codel offload:
>>
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/u7xm83/gen_2_sqm_vs_gen_3_sqm_stick_with_gen_2_if_you/
>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS <
>> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture
>> for x duration?
>> >>
>> >> That's a good idea (I think there's a service somewhere for finding
>> speedtest
>> >> servers?). We're discussing testing the ack-filter feature right now,
>> and something
>> >> similar would work well for that. (We have a bunch of 25/5 and
>> similarly asymmetric
>> >> connections, in theory it'll help...)
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM dan via LibreQoS <
>> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture
>> for x duration?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:20 AM dan <dandenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Dave, I think that 'bouncing' is more CPU time in the browser.  I
>> don't think it's indicative over what's actually happening.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A simultaneous packet capture and wireshark plot of the RTTs would
>> >>>> also be helpful.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:09 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS <
>> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Robert Chacón via LibreQoS
>> >>>> >> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I can run an Ookla test in the middle of the night with
>> LibreQoS off for a bit.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Groovy.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> > From what I recall - without Libre we see download bloat of
>> 300ms or so. With Libre, it's gone. On waveform we see 0ms added bloat each
>> direction for most clients.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> The numbers report by speedtest bounce around a lot, and they
>> tend to
>> >>>> >> pick a lower number as a final result than I'd
>> >>>> >> like. If there's a way to capture a movie of it...
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And I like the "monitor only" mode idea.
>> >>>> >> > Perhaps we could create the HTB tree, but just not attach the
>> CAKE qdisc?
>> >>>> >> > Technically even HTB could reduce latency by itself on
>> overloaded APs , so it wouldn't be true passive monitoring, but it would
>> allow us to compare the before/after of CAKE while still having qdiscs we
>> can point cpumap-pping to.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Alternatively, maybe we could use eBPF PPing just for this
>> passive monitoring period?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS <
>> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> Are you looking for a shaped result? That'll show "whatever
>> bandwidth
>> >>>> >> >> is left on the sector" without Libre, and around the
>> customer's paid-for
>> >>>> >> >> target with Libre (hopefully!).
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> One thing Preseem does well is that their onboarding process
>> includes
>> >>>> >> >> "leave it in monitoring-only mode" for a week, gathering data
>> before you
>> >>>> >> >> pull the switch (although most ISPs I've talked to just pull
>> the switch...)
>> >>>> >> >> It's quite enlightening to see a before/after, even with only
>> FQ_CODEL
>> >>>> >> >> as the shaper.
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> We could probably do something similar with a "monitor only"
>> mode that
>> >>>> >> >> doesn't enable any queues (is there a TC equivalent to "dummy"
>> on
>> >>>> >> >> FreeBSD?).
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:52 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS <
>> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> I am curious if anyone here has speedtest results with
>> libreqos on and
>> >>>> >> >>> off, and can send a screen shot?
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> >>>> >> >>> --
>> >>>> >> >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would
>> work:
>> >>>> >> >>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>> >>>> >> >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list
>> >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>>> >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>> >>>> >> >>
>> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list
>> >>>> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>>> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > --
>> >>>> >> > Robert Chacón
>> >>>> >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > LibreQoS mailing list
>> >>>> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> --
>> >>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>> >>>> >>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>> >>>> >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> LibreQoS mailing list
>> >>>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>> >>>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>> >>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> LibreQoS mailing list
>> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> LibreQoS mailing list
>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > LibreQoS mailing list
>> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> _______________________________________________
>> LibreQoS mailing list
>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>>
>
>
> --
> Robert Chacón
> CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC <http://jackrabbitwireless.com>
> _______________________________________________
> LibreQoS mailing list
> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>

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