From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 598B93B2A4 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 10:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id o13so6614638pgu.7 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:03:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GnVXyzeVuk6mytN681JCwR5/9wvmYF5ClVlyNtA45W0=; b=R5W576Y+XV/ZcjAfgBOhM1zUmZ5HkFRhLT5qBo2pdyph80dwihGLZ3tAVaL5rs9/kP 1HZt1NGsqEUUCsfqwE/2Chm3t7XCLLQFykKzTIlpJ4Czr99bKrjQsgSTSo+XHfiNZiYp hwk0waSaTWvuqftXHa7HLf7+qdJj+GqKhRcFk0d7YjOtdPimdvtFB9CpVkbkaxUNptXW kLT5ujtDVfUt7F+GsP9wH6UaEH+RKKLFqspJn+sk6A6QOyGM+1A4uNlzRz6vbTLtyt+1 GLvJYvD7iysG4nvR/DD8fLD2sJgOF3w4pyGpyBNjtecbh2hfOpTIq+e9Kk5gSGLZM3kw 4y4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=GnVXyzeVuk6mytN681JCwR5/9wvmYF5ClVlyNtA45W0=; b=NDzQzGI19v2kX1ZSFODSiK8Z9FOdEIy1uvbAM7i9n0ogy2+iJe1zNMJkWnSeiV4x2G Z7XA4sb3z06BvAQcwxrYqdMtoTVGj9jdYEqC0GDz57o2SJWri2+Iie3HtfRt1loh5FRv GI34SbjWtYDLBIqKSQSFiG/WOw0Jrvh6ZxmMy5A9Hhf2I7awhfRPxhFSTwnKm1JYnQrM b11UVMJvxCjk+pnoHg4+wrugHQ8t/Kdh7vm9FQTnXj+pihUMhB7db3Z0EPu4jB4zMXQe B3JEiFKptRNFfzC4UlxnN1wDfB33vCVi0HmkODy9WAVKLfImX67/kS+3EuKO/0GTW+Wn ufRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pkmUQJsan8gSQ4KtK5xXnMV0lr+dufecBcGjLz/UpalDD5MSUeV fAB206hEQGd2Y8e7YRlpiqcjTe71VvY9oJB4rNbgc0Kw9tA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf4R7blw2r2vBPbat317KlrwJnAeUr0zI8WuNWgJc8pQoHNIrLQz+OeVjnnW2WObnY1e2OTTwumwE5ia0cfUc+U= X-Received: by 2002:a63:6742:0:b0:46f:59af:c1f4 with SMTP id b63-20020a636742000000b0046f59afc1f4mr5381790pgc.344.1668265401017; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:03:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Herbert Wolverson Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:03:11 -0600 Message-ID: Cc: libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009e6fee05ed474e83" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Bloat] summarizing the bitag latency report? X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 15:03:22 -0000 --0000000000009e6fee05ed474e83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > A third car anology is the classic jet engine strapped to the back of > a vw beetle. And that's why I drive a beaten up 2012 VW beetle. :-) On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 9:00 AM Dave Taht wrote: > On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 6:38 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS > wrote: > > > > > If I had more time, I would have written a short letter - Blaise Pasc= al > > > > >> It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't > understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you pu= t > your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone > that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts o= f > material. - Sen Ted R. Stevens > > > > Summarizing is tough. As Sebastian pointed out, you almost need a > summary per > > target audience. Those two quotes highlight the problem: to the domain > expert, > > it's almost impossible to summarize an issue because you'll be jumped o= n > by > > other domain experts - and, knowing all about the issue, it feels > dangerous to > > omit the details. Conversely, if an expert briefs some Senate aides - > who in > > turn brief a non-technical senator - you can end up with a widely mocke= d > speech. > > If you tone down the mockery, it's not hard to see how Sen. Stevens cam= e > > to his wording - pipes, capacity, delays, queues; it does start to soun= d > like a > > series of tubes. > > > > One of my coworkers likens it to the water system: > > > > The city has plenty of water, with big pipes and good pressure going to > > everyone's house. Your house's feed to the water main limits how much > > water you can get at one time - that's your download speed. Plumbing > > design, pipe and valve quality all affect the delay between turning you= r > > faucet on and nice cold water coming out. That's your latency. You need > > to optimize both. > > > > I tend to find that customers like car analogies: > > > > On a perfect racetrack, a Ferrari will reach the end before a Honda > Civic. > > The Ferrari has more power, and is designed for faster speeds. On a > > public road network, the Ferrari still outpaces the Civic on fast, open > roads - > > but it only takes one traffic jam, one poorly designed intersection or > > stoplight - for both vehicles to be seriously delayed. Ferrari's have a > > very high speed (your download speed), and multi-lane highways have > > great capacity (high speed networks) - but a single congested traffic > > ramp (a buffer between connections) can ruin the overall travel > experience > > by adding long delays (latency) while cars merge onto different roads. > > Quality of Experience optimizes the buffers between roads, providing > > a smoother experience overall. > > Also ferrari's are uncomfortable as hell in traffic. You can't see > over the windshield, the seating position requires a massage therapist > at the end of the ride, and you're paranoid as hell someone will hit > you, and if the motor gives out it's a 2k repair bill > and weeks of downtime before you get it back. > > Then, there's the gas mileage, or lack thereof. > > Another analogy we've used is the dragster design for many internet > benchmarks. You can only go really, really fast, in one direction, > without the ability to steer, and tons of smoke and noise. > > A third car anology is the classic jet engine strapped to the back of > a vw beetle. > > You need good steering, brakes, suspension, in order to build a balanced > ride. > > > > > > (Both could be shortened, but analogy is frequently the way to reach > > non-technical users) > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 7:15 AM Sebastian Moeller via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Dave, > >> > >> > >> so I think you have three audiences that should learn about this: > >> a) end-users (my hot-take was tailored for end-users) > >> b) politicians > >> c) industry people (C-suite members of ISPs*) > >> > >> > >> I think you need three different one paragraph summaries tailored to > each groups focus. > >> > >> > >> a) end users > >> I would stress the "you can improve your link today with little work" > to make it fit for video conferencing "under working conditions". > >> I would not wade into the swamp that is "gaming" any deeper than > necessary (so have a sentence along the lines of "these described methods > will obviously also help other > >> latency-sensitive applications like gaming"). Why avoid gaming? Gamers > are quite opinionated and take promises often literally, hence are easy t= o > disappoint so better under-promise, but over-deliver. > >> > >> b) politicians > >> Here I would emphasize that while fiber-to-everyone is the ultimate > goal getting latency under control will result in a noticeable "better" > (because subjectively more responsive) internet experience for those that > will have to wait longer for fiber. I simply assume that fiber-everywhere > is the goal across the aisle in the US, at least over here all major > parties agree about the ultimate goal and just disagree how to get there, > with the party in opposition magically always seeing more urgency ;). > >> So push this as a relative low-effort/low-cost method to noticeably > improve the internet experience for the electorate... > >> > >> c) industry people > >> This has two groups, those that run large internal networks and ISPs. = I > think for the first group the arguments for a) and b) could be re-used (b= ) > reframed as low-cost ways to get more mileage out of the existing network > infrastructure with a few targeted replacements/upgrades/configuration > changes). > >> For the second group I am a bit at a loss, as the arguments a) and b) > MIGHT not be all that attractive for someone selling internet-access pric= ed > by "top-speed", making lower speeds more enjoyable/usable seems a bit > counter productive... One pitch could be a marketable advantage over the > competition, but that requires actual competition. > >> Not sure how to give the enlightened ones arguments to convince their > peers. > >> > >> Regards > >> Sebastian > >> > >> > >> > >> *) some are enlightened already > >> > >> > >> P.S.: QoS, vs QoE > >> Cause and effect, means and end... What the users will evaluate are > their experiences; traditional QoS can be a means to improve that > experience, with a hitherto often neglected aspect being latency-under-lo= ad > which above a bare minimum access rate seems to correlate stronger with > user experience than top-speeds. > >> > >> To convince CFO, or congresscritters I would think the best would be a > simple mobile demonstration platform... together with argument b) above > >> > >> > >> > On Nov 12, 2022, at 00:16, Dave Taht via Bloat < > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > > >> > If you were to try to summarize this *in a paragraph*, what would yo= u > say? > >> > > >> > https://www.bitag.org/documents/BITAG_latency_explained.pdf > >> > > >> > (yes, I helped write this, but squeezing it down to less than 3 page= s > >> > is beyond my capabilities, much less a paragraph, and by the time we > >> > hit the recommendations section, things had got too political to mak= e > >> > sane recommendations) > >> > > >> > Also QoS, vs QoE. Try to imagine explaining the need to a CFO, or > >> > congresscritter. Feel free to take more than a paragraph. > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > >> > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Bloat mailing list > >> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> LibreQoS mailing list > >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > > _______________________________________________ > > LibreQoS mailing list > > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > > -- > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > --0000000000009e6fee05ed474e83 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=20 A third car anology is the classic jet engine strapped to the back of
&g= t; a vw beetle.

And that's why I drive a beaten up 2012 VW be= etle. :-)


On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 9:00 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 6:3= 8 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS
<lib= reqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> > If I had more time, I would have written a short letter - Blaise = Pascal
>
> >>=C2=A0 It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. A= nd if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are f= illed, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to = be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material,= enormous amounts of material. - Sen Ted R. Stevens
>
> Summarizing is tough. As Sebastian pointed out, you almost need a summ= ary per
> target audience. Those two quotes highlight the problem: to the domain= expert,
> it's almost impossible to summarize an issue because you'll be= jumped on by
> other domain experts - and, knowing all about the issue, it feels dang= erous to
> omit the details. Conversely, if an expert briefs some Senate aides - = who in
> turn brief a non-technical senator - you can end up with a widely mock= ed speech.
> If you tone down the mockery, it's not hard to see how Sen. Steven= s came
> to his wording - pipes, capacity, delays, queues; it does start to sou= nd like a
> series of tubes.
>
> One of my coworkers likens it to the water system:
>
> The city has plenty of water, with big pipes and good pressure going t= o
> everyone's house. Your house's feed to the water main limits h= ow much
> water you can get at one time - that's your download speed. Plumbi= ng
> design, pipe and valve quality all affect the delay between turning yo= ur
> faucet on and nice cold water coming out. That's your latency. You= need
> to optimize both.
>
> I tend to find that customers like car analogies:
>
> On a perfect racetrack, a Ferrari will reach the end before a Honda Ci= vic.
> The Ferrari has more power, and is designed for faster speeds. On a > public road network, the Ferrari still outpaces the Civic on fast, ope= n roads -
> but it only takes one traffic jam, one poorly designed intersection or=
> stoplight - for both vehicles to be seriously delayed. Ferrari's h= ave a
> very high speed (your download speed), and multi-lane highways have > great capacity (high speed networks) - but a single congested traffic<= br> > ramp (a buffer between connections) can ruin the overall travel experi= ence
> by adding long delays (latency) while cars merge onto different roads.=
> Quality of Experience optimizes the buffers between roads, providing > a smoother experience overall.

Also ferrari's are uncomfortable as hell in traffic. You can't see<= br> over the windshield, the seating position requires a massage therapist
at the end of the ride, and you're paranoid as hell someone will hit you, and if the motor gives out it's a 2k repair bill
and weeks of downtime before you get it back.

Then, there's the gas mileage, or lack thereof.

Another analogy we've used is the dragster design for many internet
benchmarks. You can only go really, really fast, in one direction,
without the ability to steer, and tons of smoke and noise.

A third car anology is the classic jet engine strapped to the back of
a vw beetle.

You need good steering, brakes, suspension, in order to build a balanced ri= de.


>
> (Both could be shortened, but analogy is frequently the way to reach > non-technical users)
>
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 7:15 AM Sebastian Moeller via LibreQoS <libreqos@l= ists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>>
>> so I think you have three audiences that should learn about this:<= br> >> a) end-users (my hot-take was tailored for end-users)
>> b) politicians
>> c) industry people (C-suite members of ISPs*)
>>
>>
>> I think you need three different one paragraph summaries tailored = to each groups focus.
>>
>>
>> a) end users
>> I would stress the "you can improve your link today with litt= le work" to make it fit for video conferencing "under working con= ditions".
>> I would not wade into the swamp that is "gaming" any dee= per than necessary (so have a sentence along the lines of "these descr= ibed methods will obviously also help other
>> latency-sensitive applications like gaming"). Why avoid gamin= g? Gamers are quite opinionated and take promises often literally, hence ar= e easy to disappoint so better under-promise, but over-deliver.
>>
>> b) politicians
>> Here I would emphasize that while fiber-to-everyone is the ultimat= e goal getting latency under control will result in a noticeable "bett= er" (because subjectively more responsive) internet experience for tho= se that will have to wait longer for fiber. I simply assume that fiber-ever= ywhere is the goal across the aisle in the US, at least over here all major= parties agree about the ultimate goal and just disagree how to get there, = with the party in opposition magically always seeing more urgency ;).
>> So push this as a relative low-effort/low-cost method to noticeabl= y improve the internet experience for the electorate...
>>
>> c) industry people
>> This has two groups, those that run large internal networks and IS= Ps. I think for the first group the arguments for a) and b) could be re-use= d (b) reframed as low-cost ways to get more mileage out of the existing net= work infrastructure with a few targeted replacements/upgrades/configuration= changes).
>> For the second group I am a bit at a loss, as the arguments a) and= b) MIGHT not be all that attractive for someone selling internet-access pr= iced by "top-speed", making lower speeds more enjoyable/usable se= ems a bit counter productive... One pitch could be a=C2=A0 marketable advan= tage over the competition, but that requires actual competition.
>> Not sure how to give the enlightened ones arguments to convince th= eir peers.
>>
>> Regards
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sebastian
>>
>>
>>
>> *) some are enlightened already
>>
>>
>> P.S.: QoS, vs QoE
>> Cause and effect, means and end... What the users will evaluate ar= e their experiences; traditional QoS can be a means to improve that experie= nce, with a hitherto often neglected aspect being latency-under-load which = above a bare minimum access rate seems to correlate stronger with user expe= rience than top-speeds.
>>
>> To convince CFO, or congresscritters I would think the best would = be a simple mobile demonstration platform... together with argument b) abov= e
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 12, 2022, at 00:16, Dave Taht via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbl= oat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > If you were to try to summarize this *in a paragraph*, what w= ould you say?
>> >
>> > https://www.bitag.org/docum= ents/BITAG_latency_explained.pdf
>> >
>> > (yes, I helped write this, but squeezing it down to less than= 3 pages
>> > is beyond my capabilities, much less a paragraph, and by the = time we
>> > hit the recommendations section, things had got too political= to make
>> > sane recommendations)
>> >
>> > Also QoS, vs QoE. Try to imagine explaining the need to a CFO= , or
>> > congresscritter. Feel free to take more than a paragraph.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would = work:
>> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz
>> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bloat mailing list
>> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bl= oat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> LibreQoS mailing list
>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libre= qos
>
> _______________________________________________
> LibreQoS mailing list
> Li= breQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos<= /a>



--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.= linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXt= z
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
--0000000000009e6fee05ed474e83--