From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E584F3B29E for ; Sun, 4 Dec 2022 07:06:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id h7so8700567wrs.6 for ; Sun, 04 Dec 2022 04:06:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=y2ye2J/jIKyc/5KeaxgK7xF6gOIwZYqDExqTHSnpF4U=; b=mtczk/FnwhQYDyo1Umnl8XLvNNpPIZDs+t9RItV5s9kxyufoumW2dqZGjncGjCtBSy 44RVZHaHLh+3u14toq2Fs461NrMrBZQMOCTD/+fNBoYAOVr3PJjlrtflvY3ZC/eoZiE8 Wli8UCHFg4serkR5GT9FmVKgyx68civeYDh/gDAVcYm8J8SFM+9stcOBbPoQDyVtmMrr jd/3yand+wQ9xeidcTl2W6J+EG0Oy2ZJqdmDO79Vla07Wg9oIuAW06xx+T1snMq5yPe9 W4WuXLx3dcGpQADM7/P6XTXrDCtO7PKprp3OVqACnKaYiIk2kM/bKJZ/BlTvRaks/mIT nlHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=y2ye2J/jIKyc/5KeaxgK7xF6gOIwZYqDExqTHSnpF4U=; b=XKUVSZtMPmkz/eN0/795peaKtV+zLZSOFfK6kgrYPcy21PrL8R8vPt3rCaWXl78Ag5 Ig8i5c2W0MPbbW0THjdTylyw177XqZ6IbzupVzqij4PijzLt7PHmuy0bqmL9ZQ/5rvnH TAc988lwJMX4wfiTgJ5bcyn/LLVH11G7k7PvqXserX7QAmugtYpWLqcXD1gC1mKceNQV A5teFVh5nP2HRLtkJ5OMa6LVbei/8XFPLIXKlqiluv5bCh6yXLc/wwOUn6evvaWooKU2 QL3flJKwrmCfypgfomNQrpwcV64SxwhfDGYpoz/ZS3O0xySEgOsJn2AyJwGVQ5WLpute 9zmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5plynXHWf+FIi6wGEqmI37l0vkyF1KlzDIG1L3TcVSsXpDJ9tgTV F59OZoWNSzYYIXsKF+XV7+VYRLpmbGKh3FvAu9Y2diVs7xM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6dmUGdZwQzUxUURd7l7yyfAQkF0CCi+KAAxdMaSf2HPnWeGUhJHvfPTmF6yR1A6+HS5yWm6iXTjfFBJvAKkXA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1247:b0:238:aa36:6b0d with SMTP id j7-20020a056000124700b00238aa366b0dmr46225768wrx.688.1670155603188; Sun, 04 Dec 2022 04:06:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com> <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net> <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu> <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com> <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com> <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2022 04:06:30 -0800 Message-ID: To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, libreqos Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2022 12:06:45 -0000 forwarding an IT measurement tale from the beginning... ... certainly IT folk dig measurement tools of all sorts. I can't help but wonder what his at rutgers looked like (in the 1980s) compared to what we're doing in libreqos.io - dave, you got any screenshots of the old UB - tool? On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 7:35 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > On 11/3/2022 6:13 PM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote: > > Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the > > router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going. > > A counterpoint. This time, direct experience, rather than rumor: > > While at Ungermann-Bass, around the years being discussed, I managed the > effort to put TCP/IP onto the U-B intelligent PC card and include > applications on the PC to use it. Our second customer was Rutgers. > Some months later, our salesperson called me and said that Rutgers was > interested in buying a router from us. I noted that we didn't have one, > didn't have one in the pipeline, and that the salesperson already knew th= is. > > She acknowledged all that, and further said that the Rutgers IT guy also > knew all this. But, she said, he liked us. I noted that, really, he > liked /her/. > > But an opportunity is an opportunity, so I asked how long he would > wait. (For the router, not for her.) She called back later and said 6 > months. > > We had a guy just coming off a project who had said to me, on my second > day at U-B, that he really wanted to built a router. So I corralled > Stan and asked him how long he would need to build one. We did a > whiteboard analysis -- well, really, he did it and I just grunted > occasionally and sometimes asked a question, mostly to keep him going. > He estimated 5 months and I noted that was perfect, leaving us a month > for testing. > > I went to our marketing guy and he blew me off, saying that there was no > market and only a few were needed for the backbone. I then went to my > boss, John Davidson (*), who said that we never like saying no. So he > authorized the project. > > Stan Maniply was the best coder I'd seen and hit the mark. And we > delivered. > > But U-B marketing never knew how to do anything but market to a small > number of large customers. (The company had a dumb Ethernet card that > was faster and cheaper than 3-Com's, but again, had no idea how to > market it.) > > The same limitation applied to an Internet symbolic packet trace product > I built, based on an existing U-B XNS trace tool. At the Rutgers PC > product delivery, I brought it with us so the IT guy could see the > packet traffic. He was casually satisfied with our basic delivered > product but was got /very/ excited about the trace tool. Lightbulb... > This made clear that IT people doing networks would be interested in > something that gave them insight into what the heck was going on... down > there. But, again, U-B marketing didn't know what to do with it. And > by the way, neither did Wollongong marketing, when we built a fresh tool > there. Also, I thought it was a product opportunity, not a full business > opportunity. This changed when Harry Saal's company reached a million a > month. > > So, yeah, rather anti-climatically and obviously, this underscores that > understanding an opportunity matters. Possibly more than building a > competent product. > > d/ > > (*) Quite a number of people were guilty for having pointed, goaded > and/or facilitated me down the professional path I've wandered. John > Davidson was an unwitting accomplice. From his Aloha network graduate > student venue in Hawaii, he wrote a note about delayed echoing over > satellites, suggesting adoption of a scheme that Tenex used, allowing > apps to offload to the operating system; this got documented as RFC 357. > I was doing user support and had noticed echoing delays were frequent, > more generally. So I suggested to my office mate, Jon Postel, that this > would make an interesting Telnet option and I'd like to write it, but > only if Jon helped. RFC 560, RCTE. Option 5, as I recall. My first > networking technical effort. > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history@elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC