From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112a.google.com (mail-yw1-x112a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FE203B29D; Tue, 14 May 2024 13:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112a.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-61af74a010aso55901617b3.0; Tue, 14 May 2024 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715707886; x=1716312686; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rTr2EbNTPlj+xYy6mzN4nC/+nMLQO+MX4cegcXeoxX4=; b=nd8+LBrXpsc8hW6FN0FLVvtTLEIX+k3rgd3Ki4sgVAIPWu6bh+iUtob9X/7CUilNU8 AxdQwpFokn6Zzkh8t+ZuQq5RJqYN8Pv685i43KXIDPIWKXHfiv9KrNwYF9mHDioIXMz3 xe2Ao/wbS9iLCDk0kpqWscJNT1f+2/xugOKj8xGvQeYtkrq/yQFm38pKYpz//om8XAJu cVQxp7h38XekCXHVPAWmadf3xrtM5+pACcAgAND8+0R2xr6L9QF8X8XRBjO93fBtTp7p 3k5HEix3K8HhE5FEI60bCmrnjrfBGOv/aw3Zr+KQh5JMAo4CMu8aBAYoHnXrtzOAOCuk Mq8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715707886; x=1716312686; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=rTr2EbNTPlj+xYy6mzN4nC/+nMLQO+MX4cegcXeoxX4=; b=rMGVYCykoMKjUhLwRcUIoKwMCJMqVmw9oZgrPZ8L7yIc3eeL1XXAURyOrXsurqwBmH qyPO3Hh8k1ewHy1DwDVsN0wbo7gQujPT0qIYfZjvsPFWwXyot7KmYoT7dQF25XXNYYAI w9zwwmYB9aIaXtPLa3F0DlsefwOnvR/9zhYPYchjR9uHkU2SpH4Q2X3MBGmsxD6QGObZ p+8Ado7MFakITmLL5NOvoK9gI6cKKcSIYgixJ0jYheLCrY3TeDr/6RP+qb5vP5Ektn3f 0DoKxNRGAYR212fIw6+56YAMr02449YwVApFxhGbsPadWodF2DWNj1qSzCv5wXIk/Gy/ NI6w== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXIsSfJo3/1l3qXciMC//Tdi5TtcjfQGALKO4bAVxPlEJcyBIe7PeGYyERi9Uo0r5lZ2xrWwCmUgitOmrdKyBTkmR3Y1rs9nOz7MuhaiD3tXnm1z4xVCKjzL+Xs1kwOi4AkdnnPsBZhuaZ6Dvi0SQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxvqJvwLbllmxgGXmLMv+gFlpEbXl21d7oduhpEOrer+ZdIJ2uy 74EKUcKqznuiciyiPZCtcvFMWXx4WTygU8Dk0lAtaoc7dP4ZZBZBhKuO974KGHGNZaDlwtF02sw NVGzPQxsm07LB2LnAyVfm9uOxFvc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHQbR1C5+wWlNIeoM47S3pKNOYQ34nsNgmgGSxevereRm2TROywqX55aw0hP1R2v6FhWEXuvgtoPA1OOoJdXw4= X-Received: by 2002:a81:4895:0:b0:61b:34a8:cba4 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-622affcf010mr135870797b3.30.1715707884314; Tue, 14 May 2024 10:31:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1A972680-ECA5-42CA-BE8B-6BBD46FF5E74@ieee.org> <4B96B6C0-FB9A-40DD-9F04-F3F4FD18709E@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 09:05:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eugene Y Chang Cc: Frantisek Borsik , Dave Taht via Starlink , Colin_Higbie , libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fbaad306186d5e2b" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] =?utf-8?b?W1N0YXJsaW5rXSBJdOKAmXMgdGhlIExhdGVuY3ksIEZD?= =?utf-8?q?C?= X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 17:31:26 -0000 --000000000000fbaad306186d5e2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree the number 3s are the most motivated. For example I think mediatek is doing a massive come from behind win vs Broadcom and Qualcomm in the wifi ap market On Wed, May 1, 2024, 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang wrote: > Pick up the glove? > I can be part of a team. I am not as close as to the equipment as I used > to be. > I need help assembling a demo configuration that can engage the > subscribers. > Building a local team for this has been very slow going. > > I like helping a market #3 or #4 disrupt an incumbent. In most cases I > have seen, the #2 already has a game plan for competing with #1. A distan= t > #3 is usually the most hungry. > > Gene. > ---------------------------------------------- > Eugene Chang > IEEE Life Senior Member > IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society, > Hawaii Chapter Chair > IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair > IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor > eugene.chang@ieee.org > m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > > > > On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:27 PM, Frantisek Borsik > wrote: > > Basically, Eugene, the situation you are describing is calling for a > competitor to disrupt them! > > This is such an old story - so many ISPs, especially WIPSs, started just > because they either didn't have any option or all those options available > were really terrible. > > Don't you want to pick up the glove? :P > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:53=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang > wrote: > >> Frank, >> Thank you. What you suggest makes sense if it was objective! >> >> In my neighborhood, the ISP=E2=80=99s organization will feel they have n= othing to >> learn from outsiders. (Worst, both major ISPs are just a subsidiary of >> another organization. They just implement corporate standards. The local >> managers are not motivated to deviate from their corporate marching orde= rs.) >> >> A public promotion (campaign) of modern best practices is needed. Then I >> need to have this campaign spill over to the subscriber community. The >> business community needs to be educated that their productivity will >> improve. The social leaders need to learn that their community will get >> better service. Then, and only then, can I see the ISP feeling the need = to >> improve. It helps if the improvement is just open-source software on the= ir >> hardware investment. >> >> >> Gene >> ---------------------------------------------- >> Eugene Chang >> IEEE Life Senior Member >> >> >> >> On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frantisek Borsik < >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Eugene - the easiest thing in the case of your ISP would be tell him >> about us: https://libreqos.io >> >> He can take a look on it, join our support chat and get help if he won't >> be able to get it up and running: >> https://chat.libreqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/ >> >> But most of the ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, it's easy to >> deploy. >> >> >> All the best, >> >> Frank >> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >> >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >> >> Skype: casioa5302ca >> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> OK. I need help teaching my ISPs that they can do this without >>> threatening their business model. >>> Who can help me? >>> >>> A public demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our (my) neighborhood ISP >>> adopted the lessons from the public demo, most of the latency issues wo= uld >>> be solved? What won=E2=80=99t get fixed? How do we make this a widely a= dopted best >>> practice? Am I crying over issues that are already fixed? Does this >>> simplify the issues at the FCC? >>> >>> Gene >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> Eugene Chang >>> IEEE Life Senior Member >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave Taht wrote: >>> >>> Just fq codel or cake everything and you get all that. >>> >>> Libreqos is free software for those that do not want to update their >>> data plane. Perhaps we should do a public demo of what it can do for ev= ery >>> tech on the planet. Dsl benefits, fiber does also (but it is the stats = that >>> matter more on fiber because the customer wifi becomes bloated) >>> >>> Starlink merely fq codeled their wifi and did some aqm work (not codel = I >>> think) to get the amazing results they are getting today. I don't have = the >>> waveform test results handy but they are amazing. I feel a sea change i= n >>> the wind... >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 12:51=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink < >>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Colin, >>>> I am overwhelmed with all the reasons that prevent low(er) or >>>> consistent latency. >>>> I think that our best ISP offerings should deliver graceful, agile, or >>>> nimble service. Sure, handle all the high-volume data. The high-volume >>>> service just shouldn=E2=80=99t preclude graceful service. Yes, the cur= rent ISP >>>> practices fall short. Can we help them improve their service? >>>> >>>> Am I asking too much? >>>> >>>> Gene >>>> ---------------------------------------------- >>>> Eugene Chang >>>> IEEE Life Senior Member >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink < >>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Gene, >>>> >>>> I think the lion's share of other people (many brilliant people here) >>>> on this thread are focused on keeping latency down when under load. I >>>> generally just read and don't contribute on those discussions, because >>>> that's not my area of expertise. I only posted my point on bandwidth, = not >>>> to detract from the importance of reducing latency, but to correct wha= t I >>>> believed to be an important error on minimum bandwidth required to be = able >>>> to perform standard Internet functions. >>>> >>>> To my surprise, there was pushback on the figure, so I've responded to >>>> try to educate this group on streaming usage in the hope that the peop= le >>>> working on the latency problem under load (core reason for this group = to >>>> exist) can also be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to ensure they >>>> don't plan based on bad assumptions. >>>> >>>> For a single user, minimum bandwidth (independent of latency) needs to >>>> be at least 25Mbps assuming the goal is to provide access to all stand= ard >>>> Internet services. Anything short of that will deny users access to th= e >>>> primary streaming services, and more specifically won't be able to wat= ch 4K >>>> HDR video, which is the market standard for streaming services today a= nd >>>> likely will remain at that level for the next several years. >>>> >>>> I think it's fine to offer lower-cost options that don't deliver 4K HD= R >>>> video (not everyone cares about that), but at least 25Mbps should be >>>> available to an Internet customer for any new Internet service rollout= . >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Colin >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Starlink On Behalf Of >>>> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM >>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15 >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:04:43 -1000 >>>> From: Eugene Y Chang >>>> To: Colin_Higbie , Dave Taht via Starlink >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC >>>> Message-ID: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>>> >>>> I am always surprised how complicated these discussions become. >>>> (Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind of issues this community c= are >>>> about.) The discussion doesn=E2=80=99t shed light on the following sce= narios. >>>> >>>> While watching stream content, activating controls needed to switch >>>> content sometimes (often?) have long pauses. I attribute that to buffe= r >>>> bloat and high latency. >>>> >>>> With a happy household user watching streaming media, a second user >>>> could have terrible shopping experience with Amazon. The interactive >>>> response could be (is often) horrible. (Personally, I would be doing e= mail >>>> and working on a shared doc. The Amazon analogy probably applies to mo= re >>>> people.) >>>> >>>> How can we deliver graceful performance to both persons in a household= ? >>>> Is seeking graceful performance too complicated to improve? >>>> (I said =E2=80=9Cgraceful=E2=80=9D to allow technical flexibility.) >>>> >>>> Gene >>>> ---------------------------------------------- >>>> Eugene Chang >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >> >> > --000000000000fbaad306186d5e2b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree the number 3s are the most motivated. For example= I think mediatek is doing a massive come from behind win vs Broadcom and Q= ualcomm in the wifi ap market

=


=
On Wed, May 1, 2024, 12:26=E2=80=AFPM= Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@i= eee.org> wrote:
Pick up the glove?= =C2=A0
I can be part of a team. I am not as close as to the equipment a= s I used to be.
I need help assembling a demo configuration that = can engage the subscribers.
Building a local team for this has be= en very slow going.=C2=A0

I like helping a market = #3 or #4 disrupt an incumbent. In most cases I have seen, the #2 already ha= s a game plan for competing with #1. A distant #3 is usually the most hungr= y.

Gene.
-----------------------------------------= -----
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
IEEE Comm= unications Society & Signal Processing Society, =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Hawaii Chapter Chair
IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawa= ii Chair
IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor
eugene.chang@ieee.or= g
m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)



On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:27 PM, Franti= sek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:

<= div>
Basically, Eugene, the situation you are describing is= calling for a competitor to disrupt them!

This is such = an old story - so many ISPs, especially WIPSs, started just because they ei= ther didn't have any option or all those options available were really = terrible.

Don't you want to pick up the glove?= :P

All the best,

=

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Bo= rsik

= =C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com= /in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mob= ile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantis= ek.borsik@gmail.com

=


On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:53=E2=80= =AFPM Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pa= dding-left:1ex">
Frank,
Than= k you. What you suggest makes sense if it was objective!

In my neighborhood, the ISP=E2=80=99s organization will feel they ha= ve nothing to learn from outsiders. (Worst, both major ISPs are just a subs= idiary of another organization. They just implement corporate standards. Th= e local managers are not motivated to deviate from their corporate marching= orders.)

A public promotion (campaign) of modern = best practices is needed. Then I need to have this campaign spill over to t= he subscriber community. The business community needs to be educated that t= heir productivity will improve. The social leaders need to learn that their= community will get better service. Then, and only then, can I see the ISP = feeling the need to improve. It helps if the improvement is just open-sourc= e software on their hardware investment.

<= div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden= t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decorati= on:none;line-break:after-white-space">

Gene
----------------------------------------------
= Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member


On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frant= isek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Eugene - the easiest thing in the case of your ISP wo= uld be tell him about us: https://libreqos.io

He can take= a look on it, join our support chat and get help if he won't be able t= o get it up and running:=C2=A0https://chat.li= breqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/

But m= ost of the ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, it's easy to dep= loy.


All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0<= /u>

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekbors= ik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +42077523088= 5

Sky= pe: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.c= om



On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Ch= ang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wro= te:
O= K. I need help teaching my ISPs that they can do this without threatening t= heir business model.
Who can help me?

A public= demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our (my) neighborhood ISP adopted the le= ssons from the public demo, most of the latency issues would be solved? Wha= t won=E2=80=99t get fixed? How do we make this a widely adopted best practi= ce? Am I crying over issues that are already fixed? Does this simplify the = issues at the FCC?

Gene
----------------------------------------------=
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member




On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave = Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

Just fq codel or cake everything and you get all that.
<= br>
Libreqos is free software for those that do not = want to update their data plane. Perhaps we should do a public demo of what= it can do for every tech on the planet. Dsl benefits, fiber does also (but= it is the stats that matter more on fiber because the customer wifi become= s bloated)

Starlink mere= ly fq codeled their wifi and did some aqm work (not codel I think) to get t= he amazing results they are getting today. I don't have the waveform te= st results handy but they are amazing. I feel a sea change in the wind...



On Tue, Apr 30,= 2024, 12:51=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Colin,
I am overwhelmed with all the = reasons that prevent low(er) or consistent latency.
I think that = our best ISP offerings should deliver graceful, agile, or nimble service. S= ure, handle all the high-volume data. The high-volume service just shouldn= =E2=80=99t preclude graceful service. Yes, the current ISP practices fall s= hort. Can we help them improve their service?

Am I= asking too much?

Gene
-------------= ---------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senio= r Member




On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_= Higbie via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.n= et> wrote:

Gene,

I think the lion's sh= are of other people (many brilliant people here) on this thread are focused= on keeping latency down when under load. I generally just read and don'= ;t contribute on those discussions, because that's not my area of exper= tise. I only posted my point on bandwidth, not to detract from the importan= ce of reducing latency, but to correct what I believed to be an important e= rror on minimum bandwidth required to be able to perform standard Internet = functions.

To my surprise, there was pushback on the figure, so I&#= 39;ve responded to try to educate this group on streaming usage in the hope= that the people working on the latency problem under load (core reason for= this group to exist) can also be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to e= nsure they don't plan based on bad assumptions.

For a single use= r, minimum bandwidth (independent of latency) needs to be at least 25Mbps a= ssuming the goal is to provide access to all standard Internet services. An= ything short of that will deny users access to the primary streaming servic= es, and more specifically won't be able to watch 4K HDR video, which is= the market standard for streaming services today and likely will remain at= that level for the next several years.

I think it's fine to off= er lower-cost options that don't deliver 4K HDR video (not everyone car= es about that), but at least 25Mbps should be available to an Internet cust= omer for any new Internet service rollout.

Cheers,
Colin

<= br>-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
Sent:= Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM
To: starlink@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15

----------------------------------------------------------------------=

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:04:43 -1000
From: Eugene= Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
To: Colin_Higbi= e <CHigbie1@Higbie.name>, Dave Taht via Starlink
= <sta= rlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s= the Latency, FCC
Message-ID: <= 438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org>
Content-Type: text= /plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

I am always surprised how compli= cated these discussions become. (Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind= of issues this community care about.) The discussion doesn=E2=80=99t shed = light on the following scenarios.

While watching stream content, act= ivating controls needed to switch content sometimes (often?) have long paus= es. I attribute that to buffer bloat and high latency.

With a happy = household user watching streaming media, a second user could have terrible = shopping experience with Amazon. The interactive response could be (is ofte= n) horrible. (Personally, I would be doing email and working on a shared do= c. The Amazon analogy probably applies to more people.)

How can we d= eliver graceful performance to both persons in a household?
Is seeking g= raceful performance too complicated to improve?
(I said =E2=80=9Cgracefu= l=E2=80=9D to allow technical flexibility.)

Gene
----------------= ------------------------------
Eugene Chang

_____________________= __________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
h= ttps://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/l= istinfo/starlink

__________________________________= _____________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink


--000000000000fbaad306186d5e2b--