From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F7163B29E for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 13:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id l14so10180528wrw.2 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:57:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=OUkQnUYTmeX/Q+WrGmOdvAS72AgjgxKtMN6I422FnVs=; b=TtGUTuMC5RNaDdWLyijQ2NvMnYP0powkITGhfxp5XPaASMF4tUQTEu59QB/vOXSzKM 1IXj970iXFIPSeluF4f8v8VtMqyMtXKw+TDKUaLri++b2FyaqgUY8N0SzwaibxwFDGl2 cI4+aOTM5wAXnLY8C2oyDCVQPZ8Fy3viVb5z/kEtTnh1fr5idZIk5NnGdO5u2uCIgVPC 7pug0zVHZE9zu/Com5GWelA6iNXzAkt1Sh1BjCPqS8eBE0WoYRn9BjeLfQNZiHO+J2M9 +Vp8Z875yqkBcRR8qFhJDRnehI2sSHykZAdqhqVnvfPIz4QmP2+NTNTORwEsOzAGnZfx 4Dlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OUkQnUYTmeX/Q+WrGmOdvAS72AgjgxKtMN6I422FnVs=; b=agy3herDo/nEj3+F80nbTSBDxS96Bi7nMPQsE6IPHUzN/jU0VcqSe2B14ySB889DMr wM/hUf9QM/kVAxcK3SxLGKKpALApSQP+2YTvxsziMzv2VR5v9rPXYxeKSGxLtRIogdHV fQ2+y1yVh+P614MITPomqQIfoZssRna016NVP3T52e0f0iE5eDpOXiR/93fQKgMBY6NG TjNXarVXBNP8O5xXdOTXzqTmggX86Jxc5n4RQriMJBVr1pQN+QENHqYOWjrouG/GKMBs yD4KLQpioT0/V6c5J5J3UfUibPeQwF8Fu9QluqYxUebF5Fa7Tm0OsIz7nYcBlhevnzfX n/VQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0B3hBfviAlNZW4pnC45OYYnwlqQpe2J3xo/Mm2ttTlAFy81YZI m2Zav1mLPdHnWlEQtHVBO7+etQ4UKLrAPPrUl8cscT3EJiE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4ZpUtluWQStUfuMtb13gQkMpqNLW9AoSSiHfhiijxoOyUk1OiBlizOkylBwABUHzsNawmFZuF26ukmgYJaELQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:3cf:b0:231:6ed6:e978 with SMTP id b15-20020a05600003cf00b002316ed6e978mr21921968wrg.500.1666634277393; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:57:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:57:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: dan Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] ookla speedtest results? X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 17:57:58 -0000 On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:46 AM dan wrote: > > Some sort of % drop is better than count from an operator's perspective. = I'm actually happy with 'scaling issues' of % on small vs large plan becau= se those small plans are the one's we probably want to push for upgrades if= they're seeing a lot of drops. > > That said, a 'score' method works really well from a high level. And tha= t can be proportionally adjusted so a slightly higher % in a small plan giv= es the same score as a larger plan would with fewer drops. > > > Also, on the SNMP statement above, we had the same issue with preseem bei= ng hyper aggressive to pull stats. Some mikrotik versions have some snmp f= laws and preseem can peg the CPU. Hasn't happened in a while but that was = an issue. I gave up on mikrotik long before they started working on routeros7, and just reflashed everything to openwrt. I have a nice little custom build for it assembled for the ubnt agws, and the mikrotik hap ac lite. Anyone using those? I would hope they don't have the snmp problem you describe, and if they did I could get it fixed in days. Vastly improved the wifi in particular, see before/after here: https://forum.openwrt.org/t/aql-and-the-ath10k-is-lovely/59002/ (After about 40Mbits, the bloat starts moving to the wifi) Most of my work in the past 9 months has been on improving the mediatek mt76 derived products. I left off here: https://forum.openwrt.org/t/aql-and-the-ath10k-is-lovely/59002/908 A lot of this stuff is shipping commercially in the openwifi project, if you haven't been paying attention to that. > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:42 AM Dave Taht wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:35 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3n >> wrote: >> > >> > > Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks. >> > which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks >> > would be better. >> > >> > Yup, in InfluxDB for the stats by Tin (diffserv4) we display true drop= s as (trueDrops =3D ecn_mark + drops - ack_drops). But we don't do it by su= b quite yet. >> > And ok, drops, marks and drops+marks can be shown instead - by subscri= ber or by Node (AP/Site). >> > Dave - is it ok if we graph this data as a percentage of packets sent?= So for drops, drop / sent_packets ? I just imagine that would make compar= ing different subscribers' connections easier. >> >> Drops and marks are proportional to the plan. You get a heck of a lot >> more drops at 5mbits than 50, and the relationship >> is not linear, closer to quadratic. >> >> So comparing customers at their given tiers makes more sense than >> across the board. >> >> As for a percentage, you should see a clear difference in percentages >> across tiers. >> >> I know I'm not quite answering your question well, I'm a big believer >> in just getting lots of data, graphing it every which way, >> and seeing what's useful. >> >> > Question for all - is having drops / marks/ drops+marks by subscriber/= circuit worth the extra modest InfluxDB CPU use? Or should we just show tho= se stats by AP/Node? >> > If preseem currently offers such stats at a subscriber level we can do= the same, just wanna be sure I'm not overtaxing CPU. >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:14 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> >> >> Some of the context of my request for libreqos on vs off is from here= , >> >> presentation in the wee hours, wed morning. >> >> >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6989281945868283= 904/ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:48 AM dan via LibreQoS >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > we also have a bunch of 25/5. It would be nice to get some more de= tailed numbers from ookla tests. >> >> >> >> +1! We've argued methods with many a provider, and ookla and samknows >> >> are new to this game. >> >> >> >> As one example I don't know if they use decimal or binary mbits! >> >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> ack-filtering in the libreqos case can and will drop acks in both >> >> directions, due to the structure of how htb >> >> works in this scenario, at any bandwidth ratio. I *think* it does ver= y >> >> little harm but I would use the ack-filter >> >> not the aggressive ack filter out of caution. >> >> >> >> Secondly if you are gathering drop statistics from the higher level >> >> htb categories, total drops will go WAY up, >> >> and it is best to use the cake drop, ack_drop outputs statistics dire= ctly. >> >> >> >> ack_drops have nothing to do with congestion control and should be >> >> ignored in most cases. >> >> >> >> Also I keep hoping more will pull out ecn marks separately. Public us= e >> >> is way up by e2e transports, and I worry that a high ecn ratio is a >> >> e2e network error, which might show up as a big backlog. >> >> >> >> Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks. >> >> which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks >> >> would be better. >> >> >> >> An inverse log scale is needed to plot marks, drops, and ack_drops. >> >> >> >> I'll always be of the opinion that it's best to run cake on egress at >> >> the cpe, first, doing all this work before it hits the wire. >> >> Are any of you doing that? Openwrt/dd-wrt/firewalla/mikrotik 7.2? >> >> >> >> >We also have a lot of Eero units out there, so watching for the eero= speed test would also be great. >> >> >> >> eero 5s have cake (and fq_codel on the wifi), eero 6s have a somewhat >> >> buggy fq_codel offload: >> >> >> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/u7xm83/gen_2_sqm_vs_gen_3_sqm_= stick_with_gen_2_if_you/ >> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capt= ure for x duration? >> >> >> >> >> >> That's a good idea (I think there's a service somewhere for findin= g speedtest >> >> >> servers?). We're discussing testing the ack-filter feature right n= ow, and something >> >> >> similar would work well for that. (We have a bunch of 25/5 and sim= ilarly asymmetric >> >> >> connections, in theory it'll help...) >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM dan via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet captu= re for x duration? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht w= rote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:20 AM dan wrote: >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > Dave, I think that 'bouncing' is more CPU time in the browser.= I don't think it's indicative over what's actually happening. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> A simultaneous packet capture and wireshark plot of the RTTs wou= ld >> >> >>>> also be helpful. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:09 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3n via LibreQ= oS >> >> >>>> >> wrote: >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > I can run an Ookla test in the middle of the night with Lib= reQoS off for a bit. >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> Groovy. >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > From what I recall - without Libre we see download bloat of= 300ms or so. With Libre, it's gone. On waveform we see 0ms added bloat eac= h direction for most clients. >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> The numbers report by speedtest bounce around a lot, and they= tend to >> >> >>>> >> pick a lower number as a final result than I'd >> >> >>>> >> like. If there's a way to capture a movie of it... >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > And I like the "monitor only" mode idea. >> >> >>>> >> > Perhaps we could create the HTB tree, but just not attach t= he CAKE qdisc? >> >> >>>> >> > Technically even HTB could reduce latency by itself on over= loaded APs , so it wouldn't be true passive monitoring, but it would allow = us to compare the before/after of CAKE while still having qdiscs we can poi= nt cpumap-pping to. >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > Alternatively, maybe we could use eBPF PPing just for this = passive monitoring period? >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Herbert Wolverson via Libre= QoS wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> Are you looking for a shaped result? That'll show "whateve= r bandwidth >> >> >>>> >> >> is left on the sector" without Libre, and around the custo= mer's paid-for >> >> >>>> >> >> target with Libre (hopefully!). >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> One thing Preseem does well is that their onboarding proce= ss includes >> >> >>>> >> >> "leave it in monitoring-only mode" for a week, gathering d= ata before you >> >> >>>> >> >> pull the switch (although most ISPs I've talked to just pu= ll the switch...) >> >> >>>> >> >> It's quite enlightening to see a before/after, even with o= nly FQ_CODEL >> >> >>>> >> >> as the shaper. >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> We could probably do something similar with a "monitor onl= y" mode that >> >> >>>> >> >> doesn't enable any queues (is there a TC equivalent to "du= mmy" on >> >> >>>> >> >> FreeBSD?). >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:52 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >>> I am curious if anyone here has speedtest results with li= breqos on and >> >> >>>> >> >>> off, and can send a screen shot? >> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >> >> >>>> >> >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia wo= uld work: >> >> >>>> >> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-ac= tivity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >> >> >>>> >> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >> >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list >> >> >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> >>>> >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >> >>>> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> >>>> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > >> >> >>>> >> > -- >> >> >>>> >> > Robert Chac=C3=B3n >> >> >>>> >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC >> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> >> > LibreQoS mailing list >> >> >>>> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> >>>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> -- >> >> >>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would = work: >> >> >>>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activi= ty-6981366665607352320-FXtz >> >> >>>> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >> >>>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> >>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> -- >> >> >>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would wor= k: >> >> >>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-= 6981366665607352320-FXtz >> >> >>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list >> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > LibreQoS mailing list >> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813= 66665607352320-FXtz >> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Robert Chac=C3=B3n >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC >> >> >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666= 65607352320-FXtz >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC