From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1E163B29E for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2022 09:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id y16so30150511wrt.12 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2022 06:21:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=EkBzDaDiEUE7qXPYK17C/UTz8w7wqoLWJzcMj7ENyYw=; b=QVblF6i/mHfD1SE3dMQZ2bKn25gR4Lx7/N92y9reLrPSUyjagMEND+yQ1qspv4VC62 bVf4XyvZM+w4gSnQPxf7kHuH6wpYSDKIYNbQ+HOvsv7uQvUsiNJuOw3xj3kGZgf02Krs Omj1qrNCIXknM0fLxJ3/P2n7KUfeR9Ghojkv2956cUgMga96CTwUEt6s0PQ+a/INwgBx JaqCoAwk74q3sfOI5AumkIzOV0p1a38uupjczvoR19Gg6ldsY6gJ3ncuAaHJBQapLLHa 403EIcWr6nykv/cSgMQd0nflPDZqi74989lvz6uB5QEXIp0XX4s+5Hd6gsJXPYJZdE9s ZiFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=EkBzDaDiEUE7qXPYK17C/UTz8w7wqoLWJzcMj7ENyYw=; b=OlJLWV055tna19zZ0xMfZveuJ4OAIiMBrHHw3qNBhM9+xgNb+X84508R1BOgVEgayT 6wvrAN2eqVMdnAsttog/QoVqifWKWmOavIXk+znxwhdNE5AtCCmuTCcX04j9uvaiWyR8 xNA8g9hzVtalxoAlFS+uzD/VX0v82FFEjEOVN24o8nwJoZ/fKd4ThZJN5c91bQ8N7JzK JjTNXEDRfdNDnh0LHDLjO6bp6iEjTrsVO6SOhderpuTN+LUxRhSX/b1joSDxoZ9CvNiZ 6ITxdEP0l5EyNg0alSOsQEHVIUjvJuSORotQ/4ewq/WA7L4fzJp0po2oOGha9dbUV6Lp PHaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pkYvUwOV1KD8vS/W1XhOkPVu/ktRbiTfS1KPxJvTndiptPx6m3M mauAYBP5WNJgJeOJXLuF/04CsEL7msvv2i1w5dc+yPMKNOY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf4G60AFWtjJrxzYB1uxKjERBIJrQrKB+z5nvkd4z9Vt3I3DYFJq+kcmdznkDefx0QlU3bHHgbf3/2zUHH0Hf8s= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4f8a:0:b0:230:55fc:5de1 with SMTP id d10-20020a5d4f8a000000b0023055fc5de1mr13617257wru.500.1668608501736; Wed, 16 Nov 2022 06:21:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 06:21:30 -0800 Message-ID: To: Karl Auerbach , libreqos , Chris Wellens Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [LibreQoS] Network protocol abuse... X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2022 14:21:43 -0000 This is pretty cool looking, karl. How fast can it go? (see also, libreqos.= io) ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Karl Auerbach Date: Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 3:38 PM Subject: [Starlink] Hello To: Hi - I just joined this list, so I'll make my introduction here and then sit back and try to just listen for a while. I have several points of view in all of this: - Curiosity - When I was at Sun (circa 1991-3) we worked with a Russian LEO system. We ran into many of the issues I am reading about here, plus a few which are not being mentioned - such as solar blanking (this occurs in multiple forms, such as when the sun bounces off the earth, blinding the satellites I worked with or a sending satellite transits the face of the sun from the point of view of a ground station or receiving satellite) or atmospheric conditions (such as heavy rain/snow over a ground station.) We also tried inter-satellite routing, but the complexity was beyond our capabilities at the time. One lesson we learned was that due to power consumption issues on our satellites, we had to do shortest-hop routing (i.e. large hop counts) rather than longest-hop routing (lower hop counts.) (As you can intuit, our satellites were somewhat like flying IP packet routers. And because our constellation of satellites was merely a few hundred, we could pre-compute satellite-satellite and satellite-ground-station relationship in advance and retain our sanity.) - I have written massive amounts of bad code. And my father and grandfather were, respectively, TV and radio repair guys. So I'm really interested in building tools to help people diagnose and fix things. Our company is IWL (InterWorking Labs): https://iwl.com/ . The tool I've been working on the most is an evolved version of Postel's "Flakeway", a man-in-the-path router that does things intentionally badly, or downright incorrectly. I've moved it down to layer 2, so that it deals with Ethernet frames (with the ability to inspect/classify based on Ether, VLAN, MPLS, IPv4/6, UDP/TCP, etc headers) and then subject those to various kinds of impairments such as delay, jitter, duplication, re-ordering, etc etc. One can also dial in rate limiters and have some control over the algorithm used, the queue sizes, and the drop method (head drop, tail drop, some version of RED, etc - in other words you can dial in a bufferbloat scenario.) One of my interests here is whether I can build a tool that would be useful to people implementing code that is moving traffic over Starlink - I'd like to give people a way of sitting in the development labs and dialing-in various parameters so that they can tune their code to work well over a Starlink path without actually needing to have such a path. So I am very interested in the traffic characteristics that people will obtain when they use a Starlink path. I'm interested in a lot more than that vague word "bandwidth". Of course packet rates are interesting, but so are the loss rates, the delays, the variations in delay (jitter) and the way that those things onset and recede, in other words characterizations of burst behavior. And in these dynamic behaviors I'm interested in the fast-frequency stuff, such as variation in inter-packet/frame spacing, but also low frequency stuff, such as rain bursts or that solar blanking stuff that I mentioned. And from what I've read here so far, I anticipate some "interesting" transient effects once Starlink enables satellite-to-satellite relaying. I am a mathematical ning-ning. About the only thing I know about queueing is that I can't spell it twice in the same way. On the other hand, I've spent years upon years inside various kernels (including some vary strange ones built on long forgotten architectures, such as capability based machines.) If you want to know more, my personal website is https://cavebear.com It has info about me, a lot of opinion pieces, my old CaveBear Catalog - https://www.cavebear.com/cb_catalog/ - "If we have it, you don't need it" (some people have actually tried to buy some of my products!) And our company website is https://iwl.com OK, now I'll go back into new-to-the-list-listen mode. (But I will happily answer questions.) --karl-- _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC