From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 778543B2A4 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 10:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id cl5so9988294wrb.9 for ; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:00:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=OArL7Lq8SrmwRzIaiYDc2H26f1rAmT/j2Ere8+KArh0=; b=k1LrwSJpX1AqAQRi1qaoYsp5kGCdAoyyrCHO+wBpcL+WruOOaUGKzrImXkBKDwfv3R ZTC1x5I8PD1vkuEuTYwbGwCxfX09q4lDIeiFDhz9raPRKsXwu2lYCWCbTeNDZgYkxAvi GQ5b2Bm2hCT2kpKAu4yk72CLaNSR1Qbe/sAk3WtqalnXWDGV/LH12P4vi2IdCrMtolu1 cZZNbwGRz5cJ+mtrPaXlcSHC/9ZljK6xr+dNxv/Ot0Go+MllIt+SdsFuBea/4XG18J+X 6cfn7yYf/loH1r+tRziF6vKTKm/q/UtlRW3rpY6fWsxJdqZmz2OwkzQZDA1s31m+vou/ SIKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OArL7Lq8SrmwRzIaiYDc2H26f1rAmT/j2Ere8+KArh0=; b=qTIQrpcg71Jk9n9r5KmgvqwrZ3pdC0vKXiG9Jnm6JTVV4wlheFRoaJ/we/G5dzm5pQ 4qcmyCnfnymghxPZV1umLaD2tDu1YvGf1MkirGjNVq52YWBGnA1d60I3tEzx/SU3clzp JZTNE+bugTRdUX6x7E3r8eGwM2vdvWKpWW6Qj2N3koWV+T1MlZFBHK5JFujfSj+WiWol cRkYB4EP9Y8skieoqXvP2gQKn7E8cE4i3i64G09Cca+54Ll3UnsRYUHRSoKj/KYJKs0Y NcQvfENEaIxU4J/5LFLxSwUDJwt+j94CiS7p7qBwdmrh+0Xkj8RYg+PSvrOqnrogdeg6 zNBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pnmF/zQysRYBkr4A65KnoW5YOy5Yy9wXFrDu0D70Uh3thUfwqH/ ZKNgeFAl5i4N1V8oH8mFhwTxfm3IOHRbBtkWB5giTJgC X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6OInIgI/CooD+MmOx0jhDMwhgIyECiPUBbh+YaIvC6FQ2/UpDwNEyzNmDGtQKufX5o1XWJQVMOHdlSWky26Os= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:484e:0:b0:236:5974:a5c7 with SMTP id n14-20020a5d484e000000b002365974a5c7mr3537881wrs.430.1668265238141; Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:00:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 07:00:25 -0800 Message-ID: To: Herbert Wolverson Cc: libreqos Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Bloat] summarizing the bitag latency report? X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 15:00:39 -0000 On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 6:38 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS wrote: > > > If I had more time, I would have written a short letter - Blaise Pascal > > >> It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't unders= tand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your m= essage in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts= into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.= - Sen Ted R. Stevens > > Summarizing is tough. As Sebastian pointed out, you almost need a summary= per > target audience. Those two quotes highlight the problem: to the domain ex= pert, > it's almost impossible to summarize an issue because you'll be jumped on = by > other domain experts - and, knowing all about the issue, it feels dangero= us to > omit the details. Conversely, if an expert briefs some Senate aides - who= in > turn brief a non-technical senator - you can end up with a widely mocked = speech. > If you tone down the mockery, it's not hard to see how Sen. Stevens came > to his wording - pipes, capacity, delays, queues; it does start to sound = like a > series of tubes. > > One of my coworkers likens it to the water system: > > The city has plenty of water, with big pipes and good pressure going to > everyone's house. Your house's feed to the water main limits how much > water you can get at one time - that's your download speed. Plumbing > design, pipe and valve quality all affect the delay between turning your > faucet on and nice cold water coming out. That's your latency. You need > to optimize both. > > I tend to find that customers like car analogies: > > On a perfect racetrack, a Ferrari will reach the end before a Honda Civic= . > The Ferrari has more power, and is designed for faster speeds. On a > public road network, the Ferrari still outpaces the Civic on fast, open r= oads - > but it only takes one traffic jam, one poorly designed intersection or > stoplight - for both vehicles to be seriously delayed. Ferrari's have a > very high speed (your download speed), and multi-lane highways have > great capacity (high speed networks) - but a single congested traffic > ramp (a buffer between connections) can ruin the overall travel experienc= e > by adding long delays (latency) while cars merge onto different roads. > Quality of Experience optimizes the buffers between roads, providing > a smoother experience overall. Also ferrari's are uncomfortable as hell in traffic. You can't see over the windshield, the seating position requires a massage therapist at the end of the ride, and you're paranoid as hell someone will hit you, and if the motor gives out it's a 2k repair bill and weeks of downtime before you get it back. Then, there's the gas mileage, or lack thereof. Another analogy we've used is the dragster design for many internet benchmarks. You can only go really, really fast, in one direction, without the ability to steer, and tons of smoke and noise. A third car anology is the classic jet engine strapped to the back of a vw beetle. You need good steering, brakes, suspension, in order to build a balanced ri= de. > > (Both could be shortened, but analogy is frequently the way to reach > non-technical users) > > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 7:15 AM Sebastian Moeller via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> so I think you have three audiences that should learn about this: >> a) end-users (my hot-take was tailored for end-users) >> b) politicians >> c) industry people (C-suite members of ISPs*) >> >> >> I think you need three different one paragraph summaries tailored to eac= h groups focus. >> >> >> a) end users >> I would stress the "you can improve your link today with little work" to= make it fit for video conferencing "under working conditions". >> I would not wade into the swamp that is "gaming" any deeper than necessa= ry (so have a sentence along the lines of "these described methods will obv= iously also help other >> latency-sensitive applications like gaming"). Why avoid gaming? Gamers a= re quite opinionated and take promises often literally, hence are easy to d= isappoint so better under-promise, but over-deliver. >> >> b) politicians >> Here I would emphasize that while fiber-to-everyone is the ultimate goal= getting latency under control will result in a noticeable "better" (becaus= e subjectively more responsive) internet experience for those that will hav= e to wait longer for fiber. I simply assume that fiber-everywhere is the go= al across the aisle in the US, at least over here all major parties agree a= bout the ultimate goal and just disagree how to get there, with the party i= n opposition magically always seeing more urgency ;). >> So push this as a relative low-effort/low-cost method to noticeably impr= ove the internet experience for the electorate... >> >> c) industry people >> This has two groups, those that run large internal networks and ISPs. I = think for the first group the arguments for a) and b) could be re-used (b) = reframed as low-cost ways to get more mileage out of the existing network i= nfrastructure with a few targeted replacements/upgrades/configuration chang= es). >> For the second group I am a bit at a loss, as the arguments a) and b) MI= GHT not be all that attractive for someone selling internet-access priced b= y "top-speed", making lower speeds more enjoyable/usable seems a bit counte= r productive... One pitch could be a marketable advantage over the competi= tion, but that requires actual competition. >> Not sure how to give the enlightened ones arguments to convince their pe= ers. >> >> Regards >> Sebastian >> >> >> >> *) some are enlightened already >> >> >> P.S.: QoS, vs QoE >> Cause and effect, means and end... What the users will evaluate are thei= r experiences; traditional QoS can be a means to improve that experience, w= ith a hitherto often neglected aspect being latency-under-load which above = a bare minimum access rate seems to correlate stronger with user experience= than top-speeds. >> >> To convince CFO, or congresscritters I would think the best would be a s= imple mobile demonstration platform... together with argument b) above >> >> >> > On Nov 12, 2022, at 00:16, Dave Taht via Bloat wrote: >> > >> > If you were to try to summarize this *in a paragraph*, what would you = say? >> > >> > https://www.bitag.org/documents/BITAG_latency_explained.pdf >> > >> > (yes, I helped write this, but squeezing it down to less than 3 pages >> > is beyond my capabilities, much less a paragraph, and by the time we >> > hit the recommendations section, things had got too political to make >> > sane recommendations) >> > >> > Also QoS, vs QoE. Try to imagine explaining the need to a CFO, or >> > congresscritter. Feel free to take more than a paragraph. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136= 6665607352320-FXtz >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Bloat mailing list >> > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> LibreQoS mailing list >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC