From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 362673B29E for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 13:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id m29-20020a05600c3b1d00b003c6bf423c71so10474874wms.0 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:42:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=mrjXcsCPUOEW7vM0ckwHURVJp/62/IVdZbRgaJZA5FE=; b=SNVH462ngm67FUyfUjuZJusOgd8+sZtxU913XlQYWXavyQBVVUKMal+F7wicfppQLy opUXYibGxOFEm0w4Unlbc3TwNXN4PY713/5jMEMfu2rXwuSs24ovb8TJOy4iCria/shC 9+Kx4fIOXB8O/lPPWmL4cog3PCP1/WmCgTcLhDlkyqFPkA/pC69BACm6uylt8SIMqHEH B44nI1RDB1oZZIJG48GU8VuqYLSyaYbhJqM0XY/wXuPPCI58zqn6dhNRizJdyj3604G1 FbXpblJkuGZu3AXdd3dwEfbDLMcA2ubDRUbWVZM1vlUQK8Uj9Mrnz9LZKY3HLke8PF1w lR4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=mrjXcsCPUOEW7vM0ckwHURVJp/62/IVdZbRgaJZA5FE=; b=iWvQ8Tx/XoUdgmlO4HqADDvTwc/OveRoXbzNuGHMXRIvoKaWNdHHbOzIh7IzPKZPYw xoIGMxZIYiCMGbBBu8nr7TRdOomjbFssdGOLTjzoFW7v6ob/oeiKGU2bpUK/JL3bmVAw Z7oNFmmbSajFje7Vnla/7UbwkUDZ1wrNB3yOLeb6aeBIhgviRkkk4L1d3yeFAkRpRNHM Bn2G39sXsXEG+Blyv6O/z52Ubd8au1QlFobQZit3dPdttcmNynoxnh5BhBgzIezesF8f WBKJFwVmo5nfUVYufCbE2I/yWNuyPjz1eWqSTxilk9XuVMPlm3teZbiZAEGNjEpnweVy f4DQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf274sNPuGuywRCAROtzbf71Ply4c+xHolMvxV8W8XqZapuSPY51 reXfMUFOKMeghI8xCqXTp1r2OZeeAOQvHTHbA/mDvr+x X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4KEmlftb2j+fQ323FK/wKEkYzCSe3tRQlFKuCyfpmwoU15e014ksWx/aIbCru7KoUUWHj4+MMr2kO6RaBHkG4= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c3c4:0:b0:3c4:785a:36d7 with SMTP id t4-20020a7bc3c4000000b003c4785a36d7mr45058375wmj.138.1666633339937; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:42:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= Cc: dan , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] ookla speedtest results? X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 17:42:21 -0000 On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:35 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3n wrote: > > > Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks. > which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks > would be better. > > Yup, in InfluxDB for the stats by Tin (diffserv4) we display true drops a= s (trueDrops =3D ecn_mark + drops - ack_drops). But we don't do it by sub q= uite yet. > And ok, drops, marks and drops+marks can be shown instead - by subscriber= or by Node (AP/Site). > Dave - is it ok if we graph this data as a percentage of packets sent? So= for drops, drop / sent_packets ? I just imagine that would make comparing= different subscribers' connections easier. Drops and marks are proportional to the plan. You get a heck of a lot more drops at 5mbits than 50, and the relationship is not linear, closer to quadratic. So comparing customers at their given tiers makes more sense than across the board. As for a percentage, you should see a clear difference in percentages across tiers. I know I'm not quite answering your question well, I'm a big believer in just getting lots of data, graphing it every which way, and seeing what's useful. > Question for all - is having drops / marks/ drops+marks by subscriber/cir= cuit worth the extra modest InfluxDB CPU use? Or should we just show those = stats by AP/Node? > If preseem currently offers such stats at a subscriber level we can do th= e same, just wanna be sure I'm not overtaxing CPU. > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:14 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> Some of the context of my request for libreqos on vs off is from here, >> presentation in the wee hours, wed morning. >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6989281945868283904= / >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:48 AM dan via LibreQoS >> wrote: >> > >> > we also have a bunch of 25/5. It would be nice to get some more detai= led numbers from ookla tests. >> >> +1! We've argued methods with many a provider, and ookla and samknows >> are new to this game. >> >> As one example I don't know if they use decimal or binary mbits! >> >> ... >> >> ack-filtering in the libreqos case can and will drop acks in both >> directions, due to the structure of how htb >> works in this scenario, at any bandwidth ratio. I *think* it does very >> little harm but I would use the ack-filter >> not the aggressive ack filter out of caution. >> >> Secondly if you are gathering drop statistics from the higher level >> htb categories, total drops will go WAY up, >> and it is best to use the cake drop, ack_drop outputs statistics directl= y. >> >> ack_drops have nothing to do with congestion control and should be >> ignored in most cases. >> >> Also I keep hoping more will pull out ecn marks separately. Public use >> is way up by e2e transports, and I worry that a high ecn ratio is a >> e2e network error, which might show up as a big backlog. >> >> Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks. >> which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks >> would be better. >> >> An inverse log scale is needed to plot marks, drops, and ack_drops. >> >> I'll always be of the opinion that it's best to run cake on egress at >> the cpe, first, doing all this work before it hits the wire. >> Are any of you doing that? Openwrt/dd-wrt/firewalla/mikrotik 7.2? >> >> >We also have a lot of Eero units out there, so watching for the eero sp= eed test would also be great. >> >> eero 5s have cake (and fq_codel on the wifi), eero 6s have a somewhat >> buggy fq_codel offload: >> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/u7xm83/gen_2_sqm_vs_gen_3_sqm_sti= ck_with_gen_2_if_you/ >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> >> >> > sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture= for x duration? >> >> >> >> That's a good idea (I think there's a service somewhere for finding s= peedtest >> >> servers?). We're discussing testing the ack-filter feature right now,= and something >> >> similar would work well for that. (We have a bunch of 25/5 and simila= rly asymmetric >> >> connections, in theory it'll help...) >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM dan via LibreQoS wrote: >> >>> >> >>> sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture = for x duration? >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht wrot= e: >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:20 AM dan wrote: >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Dave, I think that 'bouncing' is more CPU time in the browser. I= don't think it's indicative over what's actually happening. >> >>>> >> >>>> A simultaneous packet capture and wireshark plot of the RTTs would >> >>>> also be helpful. >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:09 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3n via LibreQoS >> >>>> >> wrote: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I can run an Ookla test in the middle of the night with LibreQ= oS off for a bit. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> Groovy. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> > From what I recall - without Libre we see download bloat of 30= 0ms or so. With Libre, it's gone. On waveform we see 0ms added bloat each d= irection for most clients. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> The numbers report by speedtest bounce around a lot, and they te= nd to >> >>>> >> pick a lower number as a final result than I'd >> >>>> >> like. If there's a way to capture a movie of it... >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > And I like the "monitor only" mode idea. >> >>>> >> > Perhaps we could create the HTB tree, but just not attach the = CAKE qdisc? >> >>>> >> > Technically even HTB could reduce latency by itself on overloa= ded APs , so it wouldn't be true passive monitoring, but it would allow us = to compare the before/after of CAKE while still having qdiscs we can point = cpumap-pping to. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Alternatively, maybe we could use eBPF PPing just for this pas= sive monitoring period? >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS= wrote: >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> Are you looking for a shaped result? That'll show "whatever b= andwidth >> >>>> >> >> is left on the sector" without Libre, and around the customer= 's paid-for >> >>>> >> >> target with Libre (hopefully!). >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> One thing Preseem does well is that their onboarding process = includes >> >>>> >> >> "leave it in monitoring-only mode" for a week, gathering data= before you >> >>>> >> >> pull the switch (although most ISPs I've talked to just pull = the switch...) >> >>>> >> >> It's quite enlightening to see a before/after, even with only= FQ_CODEL >> >>>> >> >> as the shaper. >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> We could probably do something similar with a "monitor only" = mode that >> >>>> >> >> doesn't enable any queues (is there a TC equivalent to "dummy= " on >> >>>> >> >> FreeBSD?). >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:52 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> I am curious if anyone here has speedtest results with libre= qos on and >> >>>> >> >>> off, and can send a screen shot? >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >> >>>> >> >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would= work: >> >>>> >> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activ= ity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >> >>>> >> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list >> >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>> >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >>>> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > -- >> >>>> >> > Robert Chac=C3=B3n >> >>>> >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > LibreQoS mailing list >> >>>> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> -- >> >>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would wor= k: >> >>>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-= 6981366665607352320-FXtz >> >>>> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >>>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> >>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698= 1366665607352320-FXtz >> >>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > LibreQoS mailing list >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666= 65607352320-FXtz >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> LibreQoS mailing list >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > > -- > Robert Chac=C3=B3n > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC