From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 732F43B29E for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 13:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id v1so17344051wrt.11 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:39:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=5zG2tvQ+OWO2U926PzEoeudGE+fv0UHgi6umZAf6X4s=; b=mDTpEe2RAPF1zjIUtucx1wrFG7Eh+PEqY6pOlmiXtYP9J1dT0XoJkimsI+hFymS83x ZYEdQbbpBvYNcx6OYQTFZQgeamsneWWyue6jvSVdEq/gdHYGFGlaIU1Vy7csI4LXw8i+ AuAJGSpGRm2qpIi2mYjRr/3D+KN4I9tyrR7t/tv1PATg9xLR+fqoSC3aBb45Q8VDOJwr zP0c2x2wqgb2S+iwBRI6TPOBvFTtTXyPcapk/ilBH275c9BuCFqe55ok4gkFkiwPNlBp jXwOHUVkdmpvweZh6kpzd76Zgic9uES3KS86NmFXUVaedi5dqUlO3xiYBBwLNdPx3hCH ZA6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5zG2tvQ+OWO2U926PzEoeudGE+fv0UHgi6umZAf6X4s=; b=mImyHNKHtBV9/11GIwq8nBZLWwmCKg6B6vl4ysLqN2LpLqFbEghKpNEENahjQ2FQze yLAQALlz7DMh27++SlSVpkZQdpSOg1bjGFHeOsklLjaxFDI//GRtdovaRlRW3SKPgqNi pptDil4iDOqtWw/YERlpp4pBGHj7J8jsAWKgYSh/tlrKkzQlZlMxvIU5AKxm6o0/4PmQ Wj4Vv6HHnYBhh+IeiBmPOU/apuVlg3tTtvI+24DFfM0uc5pXQdkuwl/nYkaqW3nRhGSO BLr6kmgDTz8bInkiIgis0grLQuDNhik16x2+fRDhrqV8QT03VESmrICNoonYAGSFxcov Q13w== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1UA5gQNgcR+ihvujLjxCXlflD317jBk0ogKpeYeKFvOCNR+REN zk9txpzDOSrYHAuYIJnFQc/cGGgiKsjy+SroEVVlY5sl X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6oL0dMUAsLeohOxrPQhGdHCEUns2cqIzbF7XZFDGT7jMT7xhKVOp5BEWK1TmrjfDRxCFgCXjDYBi6UA8Xj2dI= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:47a1:0:b0:236:6f4d:1db3 with SMTP id 1-20020a5d47a1000000b002366f4d1db3mr4859028wrb.383.1666633167236; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:39:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:39:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: dan Cc: Herbert Wolverson , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] ookla speedtest results? X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 17:39:28 -0000 On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:30 AM dan wrote: > > eero's traffic shaper is problematic because it's based on previous speed= tests. It gets super erratic. I have well over 1000 eeros in the field n= ow and have dealt with people turning it on and their service going to sht = usually because of the late night speed test sharing bandwidth with some ga= me update or something and updating the shaper. I begged them to let people configure it manually. > > I don't believe there is a realistic way to handle client side shaping ri= ght now. Too many vendors, too many use cases, would likely require an ope= rator to add a demarc router to every customer to shape there. Standardized pppoe and/or dhcp messages would help. Or telling customers how to configure things manually. I'd also be a big fan of telling them how to use dscp correctly in zoom, et= c. > Should be noted that I have asked mikrotik to make me a GPeR inspired ARM= based PoE pass through router but got pretty mixed and mostly useless comm= ents in the forums. The purpose being a cake shaper AND DHCP option 82 i= nsertion device with some ability to do packet capture etc on prem. > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:14 AM Dave Taht wrote: >> >> Some of the context of my request for libreqos on vs off is from here, >> presentation in the wee hours, wed morning. >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6989281945868283904= / >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:48 AM dan via LibreQoS >> wrote: >> > >> > we also have a bunch of 25/5. It would be nice to get some more detai= led numbers from ookla tests. >> >> +1! We've argued methods with many a provider, and ookla and samknows >> are new to this game. >> >> As one example I don't know if they use decimal or binary mbits! >> >> ... >> >> ack-filtering in the libreqos case can and will drop acks in both >> directions, due to the structure of how htb >> works in this scenario, at any bandwidth ratio. I *think* it does very >> little harm but I would use the ack-filter >> not the aggressive ack filter out of caution. >> >> Secondly if you are gathering drop statistics from the higher level >> htb categories, total drops will go WAY up, >> and it is best to use the cake drop, ack_drop outputs statistics directl= y. >> >> ack_drops have nothing to do with congestion control and should be >> ignored in most cases. >> >> Also I keep hoping more will pull out ecn marks separately. Public use >> is way up by e2e transports, and I worry that a high ecn ratio is a >> e2e network error, which might show up as a big backlog. >> >> Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks. >> which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks >> would be better. >> >> An inverse log scale is needed to plot marks, drops, and ack_drops. >> >> I'll always be of the opinion that it's best to run cake on egress at >> the cpe, first, doing all this work before it hits the wire. >> Are any of you doing that? Openwrt/dd-wrt/firewalla/mikrotik 7.2? >> >> >We also have a lot of Eero units out there, so watching for the eero sp= eed test would also be great. >> >> eero 5s have cake (and fq_codel on the wifi), eero 6s have a somewhat >> buggy fq_codel offload: >> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/u7xm83/gen_2_sqm_vs_gen_3_sqm_sti= ck_with_gen_2_if_you/ >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> >> >> > sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture= for x duration? >> >> >> >> That's a good idea (I think there's a service somewhere for finding s= peedtest >> >> servers?). We're discussing testing the ack-filter feature right now,= and something >> >> similar would work well for that. (We have a bunch of 25/5 and simila= rly asymmetric >> >> connections, in theory it'll help...) >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM dan via LibreQoS wrote: >> >>> >> >>> sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture = for x duration? >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht wrot= e: >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:20 AM dan wrote: >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Dave, I think that 'bouncing' is more CPU time in the browser. I= don't think it's indicative over what's actually happening. >> >>>> >> >>>> A simultaneous packet capture and wireshark plot of the RTTs would >> >>>> also be helpful. >> >>>> >> >>>> > >> >>>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:09 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3n via LibreQoS >> >>>> >> wrote: >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > I can run an Ookla test in the middle of the night with LibreQ= oS off for a bit. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> Groovy. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> > From what I recall - without Libre we see download bloat of 30= 0ms or so. With Libre, it's gone. On waveform we see 0ms added bloat each d= irection for most clients. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> The numbers report by speedtest bounce around a lot, and they te= nd to >> >>>> >> pick a lower number as a final result than I'd >> >>>> >> like. If there's a way to capture a movie of it... >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > And I like the "monitor only" mode idea. >> >>>> >> > Perhaps we could create the HTB tree, but just not attach the = CAKE qdisc? >> >>>> >> > Technically even HTB could reduce latency by itself on overloa= ded APs , so it wouldn't be true passive monitoring, but it would allow us = to compare the before/after of CAKE while still having qdiscs we can point = cpumap-pping to. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Alternatively, maybe we could use eBPF PPing just for this pas= sive monitoring period? >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS= wrote: >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> Are you looking for a shaped result? That'll show "whatever b= andwidth >> >>>> >> >> is left on the sector" without Libre, and around the customer= 's paid-for >> >>>> >> >> target with Libre (hopefully!). >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> One thing Preseem does well is that their onboarding process = includes >> >>>> >> >> "leave it in monitoring-only mode" for a week, gathering data= before you >> >>>> >> >> pull the switch (although most ISPs I've talked to just pull = the switch...) >> >>>> >> >> It's quite enlightening to see a before/after, even with only= FQ_CODEL >> >>>> >> >> as the shaper. >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> We could probably do something similar with a "monitor only" = mode that >> >>>> >> >> doesn't enable any queues (is there a TC equivalent to "dummy= " on >> >>>> >> >> FreeBSD?). >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:52 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> I am curious if anyone here has speedtest results with libre= qos on and >> >>>> >> >>> off, and can send a screen shot? >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >> >>>> >> >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would= work: >> >>>> >> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activ= ity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >> >>>> >> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list >> >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>> >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >>>> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > -- >> >>>> >> > Robert Chac=C3=B3n >> >>>> >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> > LibreQoS mailing list >> >>>> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> -- >> >>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would wor= k: >> >>>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-= 6981366665607352320-FXtz >> >>>> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >>>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> >>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698= 1366665607352320-FXtz >> >>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> LibreQoS mailing list >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > LibreQoS mailing list >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666= 65607352320-FXtz >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC