From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com (mail-wr1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70ECF3B29D for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 12:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id z14so8646737wrn.7 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:57:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=vp0BQ9n4aP0GZt0SBxynNWnwFV6r8CNv7CN7cwe1lgo=; b=JX8kuriLC0ezqVa3zbNe916J9UJBhguCElO8VtZwurJyhuK9yaqEhy08MgMLKFJ31a CresXNiMUifsGvmqZV1A5TiyB9s7DdGF7ZyOWfnrkwqfbxBBy0S1wCSXcR01Q/3dew78 r2mU967uEFD0Y5xYnzcsZXYOCggNvvlrbWrDY/vCl6pTs3SY4qiaek/Gludb2/jHkt2u ddY7jKrjn9t53ysiSH5JTrRqIZbw+CVRZqMeQYWtCMbnLlsSauVZAuElEoooQaUBIERN FrKPeslqTnjQOsTo/g1c28EQdJ6tapfFfQam/oDM5TnuXA1lGmaKCZfudD7Mlip44Kvg 3TUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=vp0BQ9n4aP0GZt0SBxynNWnwFV6r8CNv7CN7cwe1lgo=; b=aRMVPcyPapRmmrpQcCIzj/YCqeNC6RArHYb2hGQ3IRGbPqfM8fs7rw358LWdh7ql97 AjXeaqbYeNIGl7EwbHio72G7PGgGeEcZHEXrWA16bUc1hpleX0dp7u/kka8RP/F3dyAv RmyZePQjXBebMm6MoaITkQoO+5y+rLgKHu431XpJk0fFXF7PpoyHpYWyeM+K2QVyWE40 exHcZ+NZ6Q9xmVPiiFEvSVC+wbBMUhutT+5m+HdgzTm6pOmd/+5Yax7fsDmeCl7a2XRK ZIGV3rYI/799K6Zg3Za6LjtmCdfRYVG8Oglsxw5XN1CkaqMhowLMw1ervIjTdtN82bOy VFvA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3NsAs9Y/Iu4GqxlkvzfXZejATshgxB+yKxm3I/URVPgtRUiQ2C UNbeLg6uE8yqRta2zZguC5Ldce9it1/yG98Hu1buxuexXKA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM69gpsC2yKTtIDRu1TBRbn7BS+5rhydBcdu9AXtoiywQkd3D0688OaOfeqH7Mbim3zsMXuNp3lyUC0d1R6DMf4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:69b:b0:22e:36aa:5f1 with SMTP id bo27-20020a056000069b00b0022e36aa05f1mr25516634wrb.430.1666717023246; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:57:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:56:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: dan Cc: Herbert Wolverson , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 16:57:04 -0000 On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 4:25 PM dan wrote: > > > >> >> >> >> How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and >> bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to >> nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people trying >> to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60 >> with *really good antennas* into the office market... >> >> big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. >> > > I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there. > > 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain. Longest shot on network right= now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid 300Mbps ac= ross this with zero fade. Actually gets a tiny bit better in the rain, ie = it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it's a minor impr= ovement. > > I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps. And a 10 mil= es force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional in 80Mhz= . No rain fade. Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in different distances. = We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP <> LTU-LR or LTU-= Pro for PTP. Works well enough though this product is susceptible to noise= more than any other we use. > > Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to node= or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid CPE= . Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with npe= rf UDP. > > Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better. AF 'LR' and 'XR' roc= k solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be usable. = Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. > > Ubiquiti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fails over. 4km w/ wifi6 = failover. Fantastic product... probably the one to beat. > > Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay. Can g= et a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you. These have = 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the small and 800= m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover. > > Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to noticabl= y fade. MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting 'turning' the= beam off aim. > > 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands. channels 1-4 are short rang= e, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up. channels = 5,6 are 2-3x longer. Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playing in this s= pace right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower output power so = it's 'ok'. Tachyon coming into this space as well, but unproven and AFAIK = zero beta deployments. > > 5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today with a well built network and good AP/A= ntenna choices, <=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech. technically a bit more, but w= ith reasonable ratios this is about right > 6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta users. OFDMA+MUMIMO is really delive= ring here. > 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that with = upcoming channel bonding. base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, long 10Gb= ps port(s). Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no effective fade= if built right. if built wrong, fade to death. > 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave. <=3D800Mbps. Technically a bit more bu= t I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it. I can however get 2= customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP. Plan with built in fade and= intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km. Acceptable in Montana. Thx for such a deep dive! How about Tarana? How does "Terragraph" derived tech tie back into shipping products? I've been involved with a bunch of other highly speculative technologies over the years. # Free space optics Koruza showed promise at one point: http://www.koruza.net/ Google's been trying to line up folk for this for a while: https://x.company/projects/taara/ # Radios ... I appreciate the data on all these radios, their relative performance and range. This stuff needs to end up in a wiki chart somewhere. ? ... but it's not knowing the buffering on em that bugs me the most. :/ Got all kinds of measurement tools for that crusader, in particular, is coming along. packet caps from iperf sessions... flent to a raspi on the other side of the link... # Still a hardware guy at heart Back in 2013 I had thought hard about entering the market for radios in the 11ghz (and wispa just freed up a lot of space in the 10? or 12? band for future use) licensed spectrums, but I couldn't stomach working with qualcomm again. I have some hope a mediatek might get into that, and I could work with them. anyone got devices that can use channel 172 yet? That just got freed up too= . > > > --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC