From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED1C63B2A4 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 17:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id bk15so28659085wrb.13 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 14:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=bhMYLvAbuNDnLTgja9LkkkgQTvIes970V2yFatCApfU=; b=jAl/7nsb8z2Ml+Ia77Tu3PRAZXPU6ztfIlRaXObID4FJXSJCvXDLnf/blGoCLUZFZB lU5BTDvRhZBIZGOxgFOnnpgU7ep2lkPcZy08Yf/XIFiShVS/qxPFVyNSv03vURFsbveA V1DWc7sMpntIDIgTnCw+Eq5ikwS8RDq/+cRRDh1hmMd5fUcnl3/fT9ZrZBhL2BLms224 23rAtpQzU3TLsbC0TX25S1bmh+LdNt2it3Q/g5oKJStO6C3REWUVruFwz4xOtSbn24VF L4UgXLZlAxHgtrLusG67ODl2rW7pn4BXkEefJbZ8sdqwgxdO0oDJZRUrCKQ38ccQRugS Im5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bhMYLvAbuNDnLTgja9LkkkgQTvIes970V2yFatCApfU=; b=Ft/edr3PCdYeQBpc9mQG3Rp0/z7SQ1i6KzA5iYfnGJH92/ui9sjhXclanEnwklpU27 WMa/M2fMkPu47z2Os/G2p0LFcEPE/tPeVfcXhb/ubfBuW4ligZHYFkq2LBU+OdRujtkN t+NMVTyp07EcBB5fQN+iZroICs8Fv0ntan38hDfn8oakXXUUbBxEHuQYEoz2K5FGeZJw vWfDx2D9CgApl3EPE1EiTVz4TBo0ZHmMufX8tvDHxmX8mM/DZQrRBoUdgw6vf+9/LeLa 2FKNV8eLcqDOhIABAmjVIPHC1mb6z2LgnRRqm7S4hbr7C9zUn2llVXMJ1qKafEHuvrWM ulPA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1/1a6+asGZ9H26vpel+L3I3qUsL09rkEmKM8LQ9kU3tDWSDPBI Z5kAT/osr59QbOZkqqLzSQYh2kaNWxjPzVZcsTBK3m6bM14= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7+Y+xrE16eNrIj4pA4eplzGxOwidXIyepZlzffzHnp8iN7jxlFG3pmuBJdREI3d+oO1gBPvuaCWCXcYd0i8Ec= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:47a1:0:b0:236:6f4d:1db3 with SMTP id 1-20020a5d47a1000000b002366f4d1db3mr12543875wrb.383.1666820314772; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 14:38:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 14:38:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Herbert Wolverson Cc: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net, Juliusz Chroboczek Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] routing protocols and daemons X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 21:38:36 -0000 On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:53 PM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS wrote: > > My name is Herbert, and I'm an OSPF addict... seriously, I love OSPF. Rig= ht down to stub sites, not-so-stubby sites, and isolating IP blocks within = a site into "stub" nets and ensuring they are aggregated properly. I should= probably go outside more... haha. My name is dave, and I think all routing protocols should have evolved much better to elegantly meet the real world problems they were trying to solve, than they have. To avoid burying the lede, to what extent does OSPF still rely on multicast? How well can it carry ipv6 now? What extensions are common in the real WISP world? BGP needs a few more napkins. RIP was a VERY good start but we drew the wrong lessons from its failures, and the super-duper-trendline towards centralized controllers inherent in OSPF and ISIS that happened in the 90s that doesn't scale anywhere near as I'd like. I liked the rise of meshy 802.11 networks, I know the author of AODV well (charlie perkins is arguably one of the fathers of mesh networking, far too few have read his books from the 90s). And I've been involved in the "battlemesh" group for many years with those trying to make 'em work better on networks such as guifi, wlan-slovinia, etc. Backstory. Back in 07, in Nicaragua, I was (stupidly) trying to get ipv6 to work over nanostation m2s or m5s I forget which, and the basic option was to run two copies of the ospf daemon to manage 4 and 6 independently. I only had 32MB of memory and it didn't fit, so I started looking for alternatives, found babel, corresponded with (and frankly thoroughly annoyed) the author, and starting giving it a go. It transported 4 and 6 in the same packets, was tiny, was distance-vector (thus, I thought, more a match for bgp), and (to me) most importantly, solved the ipv4 and ipv6 routing problems in the same daemon at the same time, and actually fit into less memory than ospf did. It was good enough it seemed, to deploy to a few hundred routers without having to play major tricks with areas and stubs and so on. Babel is so simple that toke wrote a near complete implementation from the spec, in python, during a string of extremely boring IETF meetings, over the course of a week. He later took on the bird port. Over the years we've wedged most (but not all) of the key features I thought a meshy wireless routing protocol should have, with implementations in a standalone daemon, bird, and FRR. (there was a quagga port at one point too. I forget what happened to toke's python version). https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8966.html babel https://arxiv.org/abs/1403.0445 source specific routing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8967/ HMAC authentication https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-babel-rtt-extension-00 RTT metric https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/99/materials/slides-99-babel-unicast-h= ellos-00.pdf unicast hellos Missing is BFD support, and the slightest bit of traction outside of the shrinking battlemesh communities. Althea is using babel and fq_codel in their blockchain routing thing (I reserve comment), and I don't know where else, besides as part of wireguard tunnels, babel is being used today. But I'm rather interested in how OSPF evolved since I last touched it, and what use cases it is good at and fails at? > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 3:29 PM Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >> >> OK, since I'm getting such great updates on the state of the wisp >> world, far more in a few days than I've had in 10 years... and btw, no >> need to leap on dr science guy research questions like mine if you >> have like, towers flooding or the phone ringing off the hook.... >> >> What routing protocols are in use nowadays? BGP, yes, and it seems >> ospf is popular? >> >> How about ISIS? >> >> I figure babel has zero traction or awareness despite being mandated >> by the ietf homenet working group. >> >> Secondly, do you rely on BGP based on the edge router or use it in >> software (frr? quagga? bird?). Using RPKI? Push FIBs anywhere? (route >> 666 in particular) >> >> Similar question related to the IGP protocol in use, where do you rely >> on it, vs all the tunnels you have, on what kinds of hardware? >> >> I note that robert at some point, somewhere, pointed out how fq_codel >> saved his bacon when there was a major routing mishap (as there is no >> congestion control in ospf), and I'd like to hear more of that story. >> >> BATMAN has been mentioned. There's other wireless protocols I've liked >> - OLSR for example... >> >> Nobody knows what lies underneath many consumer wireless meshes >> although it looks like 802.11s is a starting point, none, so far as I >> know interoperate across brands. >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666= 65607352320-FXtz >> Rip Van Winkle COO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> LibreQoS mailing list >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC