From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98F893B29D for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id he11-20020a05600c540b00b003ef6d684102so10012463wmb.3 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 17:21:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681604489; x=1684196489; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=D12MTV8b+LSafPiyeFF3AzuQpU+eYxddfoehhpnljJI=; b=eUPIUaJkW+bZsgYoS53T3f55XtMjlSAkwXuuuhy714+pyQiFUMRhDuhotaPk4xt2GL rjKPmuLjjX5hpk6X2ehIAXBAHcLqZzAhBHOT3ORp6zvMJrCBe5mza0TvCSGnNWFgyJmU Cj/BcscpiaVvegnTJT8Tp8B2CdQTEtyhTsptQ+1dvxopyGwMQohTpc6jBpOhxvgjKr7o cAsKwQzGDsLl0Ry6FoqhQD7J+H94kJUxLIYoEZgLw3TOqthKF7XB6O6N/Cwp7tGwtMed LbhTp8v67ZD+wLPA3Ry0Qigdv67WJehGp6EFVYADq654pmPehJYCaWBHbyhs7b94PJ0t IB0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681604489; x=1684196489; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=D12MTV8b+LSafPiyeFF3AzuQpU+eYxddfoehhpnljJI=; b=g9t9qAJdH8G8A7b4fnZwd2einX6ePKI1hIK+Y288H8mGC8kKwPT+cS24ShyCSkH8yv YoohM2yuIZ4FB4EHTk4WqSk0ocRXl0MqHL6rntHIVlN3mBmVJjzhgqdglgIiDhUcQRWM hG1rMvgdbQodF7eXUa95Z0HaOwu9KNStHFD5u9sexl7rvuEjutJMqBfMNWP+oMaVUctu L5X7uqWDEXsK3lWlqyfRTm2ATIwCNTKMdpFmwyPqs3xiBr+nAjWVPJOSPcq4IO1M7LQO OATKkZmbaoVa2bdJy7earEF9kjU8rxRTHsknS23OrXhTuEul2g42gT/ZPShwCXrjGbzC QSUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9c+bpbX85mQ4aN039Bl8nZOgozDQkIb3GXLNA6ohwBBMbOVSzRA eVspVY9d008/ZmmdvV07wyk6ENPaskck7rjVOIc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bVIExkNHXDxRmlRp78VS0JqTrpfNuT2j4w5Gcx3wJAyVQkb8Hmy5kea0PbXfbBDpJ1mLj31xlsspzfimxaaZA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2118:b0:3ee:13af:1ea with SMTP id u24-20020a05600c211800b003ee13af01eamr2251384wml.0.1681604489328; Sat, 15 Apr 2023 17:21:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 17:21:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: dan Cc: Brian Munyao Longwe , libreqos Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] solar powered internet X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 00:21:30 -0000 Really wonderful information. I last tried to accomplish this using edison batteries (in the warmer climes) due to how long they last and the simpler solar controller. But they were bulky, and needed ventilation. On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 9:56=E2=80=AFAM dan wrote: > > I run a number of solar sites in the frozen north as well as have built a= nd continue to monitor and advise on a number in tropical latitudes. This = formula holds up in multiple climates and has been learned the hard way inc= luding snowmobile rides with generators to power under built sites. I also= build RV solar plants. Once had a solar installation company until the ma= rket fell out in early 2017. > > battery sizing is the typical watts of all gear * 24 * max number of over= cast days in a row. > 60W site in Montana where we see 7 straight days of overcast is 60*24*7= =3D10080Wh of usable battery > Lipo/lifepo4 batteries can be used at about 100% of rated, while lead aci= ds are about 1/3 of rated. > so about 4x 24V100Ah lifepo4 batteries, or about 12x of the same in lead = acid for this particular area. > > Panel sizing is recovering 2 days of power every day. So a 60W site need= s 1500Wh to operate, and we need to recover 2 days, so we need use+2 days o= r 4500Wh per day. > > Take the sun hours on the 'winter' solstice and divide that. Montana's w= inter solstice for example is 3.5hours of sunlight. 4500/3.5=3D~1300W arra= y. so 4x 325W panels will do it. > > Always MPPT, and sized for that 1300W or higher if you like. Battery ban= k needs enough charge rating to take the 1300W. say 4x 24V lifepo4 in para= llel and you need about 12A of charge rating each for example. No reason = to over size this by much unless you have high hopes for expanding the site= . Lead acid batteries are much harder to charge and you might have to over= build the array a bit in the cold because you have to push amps in to get t= hem going. Just don't lead acid unless you're in a developing country.... > > Special consideration for snowy climates. Tilt panels up at 60 degrees f= acing south for a heavy winter bias and to encourage snow to fall off. Add= additional panels facing south east and south west in parallel. Could be = 2 panels south east in series, 2 south west in series, 2 south in series, a= nd then the 3 sets in parallel (2S3P layout) and the e/w panels tilt up ver= y aggressively, that way you can collect maximum sun right away in the morn= ing as well as be running the site off solar until sunset vs being on batte= ry for 3-4 extra hours. Snow buildup is the primary issue in winter obviou= sly. If you are at a site that gets feet of snow, then run 2 separate arra= ys, a 'normal' array at the latitude's optimal tilt, and then a separate 2S= 3P or similar style array but stood straight up at 90 degrees. We're exper= imenting heating the back of panels when there is snow on them via a relay.= early results are really promising. I had about 2 feet of snow on a pane= l at 60 degrees and it took 5 minutes and about 50Wh to convince it to slid= e off. > > Main conceptual issues I've had to push people through: > -100% usable vs 33% usable on lifepo4 vs lead acid is worth the up front = cost and the need to get self-heating batteries or put them in a climate co= ntrolled box. battery performance and life is so much better that you're = UP about 50% in value over 8-10 years. > -Solar efficiency is irrelevant. This is all for off-grid uptime. Solar = panels are one of the cheaper parts of the kit. Charge controllers don't ha= ve to match panel amps, just volts. ie, 2 panels w/ 80V8A output and a 100= V10A controller is a match, but so is 20 panels at 80V80A, solar doesn't 'p= ush' amps in so you can overbuild solar without increasing the other compon= ents. > -the '7 days of overcast' number is the maximum amount of battery that's = useful. It may sound great to double this up 'just to be sure' but that is= almost always a far worse decision than doubling up on panels. > -wind is a costly addition that the same $ on more solar panels would lik= ely double output and not require maintenance. Wind is terribly inefficient= at low blade diameters. Leave wind to wind farms. > -Solar panels produce about 5% output when covered in a few inches of sno= w. up to 10% on overcast days. 1300W in solar should be able to handle th= e 60W site for about 1/3 the day without drawing from batteries. Again, mo= re solar is the primary way to juice the system, not adding wind or more ba= tteries. Overbuilding solar is really just building appropriately for over= cast conditions. Forget efficiency when it comes to solar panels, stack 'e= m up! > > Always put a camera up. I've seen too much bird crap take down an array = so you want to be able to see charts of production to see that build up hap= pening. or if it's covered in snow you want to know what you fix ahead of = time you need visuals. > > For equipment: > We use victron. My preferred kit is the smart MPPT 150/35 plus a Cerbo G= X and Shunt. All of these devices connect together for monitoring. Monito= ring is king. We then use a 24>48 DCDC to get dual voltage at the site. > We use quite a few ubiquiti edgerouter 10XP and similar for airmax sites,= but those are being replaced mostly with mikrotik's Netpower16P unit w/ du= al voltage input. We're still waiting for a 4 pair power multi-voltage sw= itch from someone other than Netonix (extreme failure rate, I'm OVER 50% on= these, they are banned on my networks). > > I could add more, but this post is long enough. > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 5:58=E2=80=AFAM Brian Munyao Longwe via LibreQoS = wrote: >> >> If the radios are POE, DC-Netonix, with enough batteries for 2-3-4 days = and a MPPT + Charge Controller to handle the voltage from the solar panels >> >> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 12:07 AM, Dave Taht via LibreQoS wrote: >>> >>> I am not going to buy into the level of hype here: >>> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidtheodore/recent-activity/all/ >>> >>> But I am curious as to what extent solar power (how many watts?) can >>> be used nowadays for heavier duty backhaul radios, and what forms of >>> long term battery storage now exist? >>> >>> Most UPSes sold in stores are designed for a high load, for a short >>> time, where aiming for 2-3 days of backup power would be better in >>> this case. >>> >>> -- >>> AMA March 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-ta= ht >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>> _______________________________________________ >>> LibreQoS mailing list >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> >> _______________________________________________ >> LibreQoS mailing list >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos --=20 AMA March 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC