From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112b.google.com (mail-yw1-x112b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67A8B3B29E for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112b.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-368edbc2c18so98745747b3.13 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 16:25:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9lD29gI8KDnurSFo/9VPw5iqLI7HX3p3T0Gu1H1K2dU=; b=Lr1+BhgfIuS9FmrabSMoLMmEt7AUfl8XZc9+V7oYJkpEmHG/ysJ2fkbK/g2cegbn7q OVvXky8hXxHRAXTYe0YNxDsnCLYa0YJSDYo3vMGsI2DRZ8YPXESY3vhOEUbMOgfPOJ1P LN6OskegBI8e4268jUX5SD9DIoI05LlcbiikZxm5L7CRjBwlQOM8lSEiKO8FtzgCEsct aiXjB/dCzWjSCSFRJ8P+AkpSx4EeP4ExNCOU9odlZJhBrk+YE2XxyuVWbUelnsruRzba Mqxcvn+WXa4Nx0YYZb3mmURSQKSasUYFLMurEBirHvQEE/SWEZKgi/wEQbfwQaCg/APS TWCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=9lD29gI8KDnurSFo/9VPw5iqLI7HX3p3T0Gu1H1K2dU=; b=VaK0ufOPdD1ehJlPlT2XHGmyJgdBhKxze6Yfu4fKqq6dsngb8DaXYvhgQKPdkp9Szx neHs7eHnYbq88lYutMJ/m4TSg8HVN/DEUCzEoaLZ7XRR6WNODyZdjuWU31Cnj3sjzkY6 qiso4/7wSP2v5huGh0W751awt6TxivVdrT8Y9Q+kDhkC0C3f3dbwuUnk96iAY2cmNt3I fb24x9nYPcdspDvca+ittTOdtJjlleIjy3QV/6W13Fp03hK3ULQvpEaeCUHrLHwFR3T+ fp2z18qFxLPtSDpx9FpLWZ5tmVfPp5x2IHcIBqoswJlIIraNaFcpTohXh7kQAJogudQg HEWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3UYyMDWB5jTHhOommPMIulfJrfDK+tGBBI31VoSLSMN0/jpbfQ FzdYVxXIzrfpgSPavCncEnReyqjtNaI0vAZCtQjXfN6oSvw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7eOSBB+GSlQrfULh5Q+jr/6j6POiZIBGUFWBXS1BVzeMOfC2Yhjd16PDb9gXjePIVmgIxi5Vx4Yz5y/XnI7Pw= X-Received: by 2002:a81:7993:0:b0:351:b89:2cf8 with SMTP id u141-20020a817993000000b003510b892cf8mr30005595ywc.320.1666653919678; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 16:25:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 17:25:10 -0600 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Herbert Wolverson , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d8960005ebd01ad6" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 23:25:20 -0000 --000000000000d8960005ebd01ad6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and > bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to > nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people trying > to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60 > with *really good antennas* into the office market... > > big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. > > I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there. 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain. Longest shot on network right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid 300Mbps across this with zero fade. Actually gets a tiny bit better in the rain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it's a minor improvement. I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps. And a 10 miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional in 80Mhz. No rain fade. Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in different distances. We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP <> LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP. Works well enough though this product is susceptible to noise more than any other we use. Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to node or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid CPE. Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with nperf UDP. Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better. AF 'LR' and 'XR' rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be usable. Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. Ubiquiti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fails over. 4km w/ wifi6 failover. Fantastic product... probably the one to beat. Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay. Can get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you. These have 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the small and 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover. Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to noticably fade. MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting 'turning' the beam off aim. 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands. channels 1-4 are short range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up. channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer. Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playing in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower output power so it's 'ok'. Tachyon coming into this space as well, but unproven and AFAIK zero beta deployments. 5Ghz <=200M service plans today with a well built network and good AP/Antenna choices, <=500Mbps with WiFi6 tech. technically a bit more, but with reasonable ratios this is about right 6Ghz <=900Mbps plans on live beta users. OFDMA+MUMIMO is really delivering here. 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that with upcoming channel bonding. base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, long 10Gbps port(s). Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no effective fade if built right. if built wrong, fade to death. 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave. <=800Mbps. Technically a bit more but I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it. I can however get 2 customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP. Plan with built in fade and intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km. Acceptable in Montana. --000000000000d8960005ebd01ad6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


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How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and<= br> bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to
nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people trying
to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60
with *really good antennas* into the office market...

big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me.


I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there.=

5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain.=C2=A0 Longest shot on ne= twork right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a s= olid 300Mbps across this with zero fade.=C2=A0 Actually gets a tiny bit bet= ter in the rain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise = so it's a minor improvement.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I have 2x 7 miles force= 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps.=C2=A0 And a 10 miles force 400c on 2&#= 39; ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional in 80Mhz.=C2=A0 No rain = fade.=C2=A0 Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in different distances.=C2=A0 = We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP <> LTU-LR or= LTU-Pro for PTP.=C2=A0 Works well enough though this product is susceptibl= e=C2=A0to noise more than any other we use.

Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is = fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to node or small CPE, 500M to big= CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid CPE.=C2=A0 Pushing 1.7Gbps FD= X on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with nperf UDP.

Ubiqui= ti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better.=C2=A0 AF 'LR' a= nd 'XR' rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down t= oo much to be usable.=C2=A0 Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio.

Ubiqui= ti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fails over.=C2=A0 4km w/ wif= i6 failover.=C2=A0 Fantastic product... probably the one to beat.

Mi= krotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay.=C2=A0 = Can get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you.=C2= =A0 These have 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m o= n the small and 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5G= hz failover.

Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn&#= 39;t going to noticably=C2=A0fade.=C2=A0 MOST fade in these bands is actual= ly thermal ducting 'turning' the beam off aim.

60Ghz should = be considered 2 separate bands.=C2=A0 channels 1-4 are short range, <1km= in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up.=C2=A0 channels= 5,6 are 2-3x longer.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playing in = this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower output= power so it's 'ok'.=C2=A0 Tachyon coming into this space as we= ll, but unproven and AFAIK zero beta deployments.

5Ghz <=3D200M s= ervice plans today with a well built network and good AP/Antenna choices, &= lt;=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech.=C2=A0 technically a bit more, but with reaso= nable ratios this is about right
6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta = users.=C2=A0 OFDMA+MUMIMO is really delivering here.
60Ghz 'low'= band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that with upcoming chan= nel bonding.=C2=A0 base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, long 10Gbps port(= s).=C2=A0 Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no effective= fade if built right.=C2=A0 if built wrong, fade to death.
60Ghz 'hi= gh' band ubiquiti wave.=C2=A0 <=3D800Mbps.=C2=A0 Technically a bit m= ore but I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it.=C2=A0 I ca= n however get 2 customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP.=C2=A0 Plan wi= th built in fade and intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Accep= table in Montana.



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