LTE is our primary '5Ghz didn't work' and 450i/450m the secondary. primarily due to cost. Baicells UI has zero advantage on Cambium's lol. But I can push 50Mbps through a -80 RSSI every day and nothing else can do that (short of Tarana...) On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS < libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > I figured LTU was in trouble when they promised the moon, took years to > deliver anything, features kept dropping off the list and they went on a > posting spree of how MU-MIMO couldn't work outdoors. Glad we stayed away > from that one; it looks like Ubiquiti are quietly dropping it and going > 802.11AX, which has the important features they dropped (OFDMA with tiny > sub-channels, in particular). > > We have a bunch of 450m "medusa" running here (all 3ghz CBRS). Once we > found the magic combination of 5ms frames, GPS (via a SyncBox Junior), and > LTE Co-Existence Mode 2 (we have a lot of T-mobile in the area) it's been > pretty awesome. Top speeds aren't all that amazing (you can get 100 mbps > out of it), but it'll get 75 Mbps through some maple trees at 8 miles - and > that's really useful. Grouping has improved a bit in recent firmwares, but > still falls apart completely if you have more than 3-4 SMs who show up as > "not eligible" in sounding statistics. You have to watch the spatial > utilization from time to time to make sure you haven't flooded one of the > sub-channels. Overall, though - we've been really happy with it. We > haven't loaded one much about 30 subscribers yet, and tend to use it as a > "5.x Ghz didn't work here" - but it really pushes the bits with 28 SMs at > 8X and a couple of not-so-great ones. > > The UI is funny. Many, many years ago we had Motorola WiMAX (the carrier > grade stuff that still had "clearwire" baked into the UI). The UI was > absolutely terrible. I'm pretty sure the Motorola group who developed it > went on to the Canopy group, because it's just like being back on that > system... (I poked around in one of their EMS management scripts and found > a hundred lines of x=1; y=1; x=y; y=x-y; etc. with a comment at the end /// > This should help my LoC count). I hope Cambium didn't keep that bit. :-| > > We shied away from LTE, WiMAX burned a hole in our heads and our pockets! > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:25 AM dan via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> LTU.. huge potential but majorly flawed product line. We've stopped all >> LTU deployments because every site we built we'd watch the modulations >> slide down over time. Every new netgear router in a neighborhood >> (practically...) takes modulations down a step. Too many mornings hunting >> for a new usable channel because of a new source of noise and >> LTU's inability to cope with it at all. We have mixed sites with airmax >> and LTU and the airmax outperforms the LTU because of these issues. We >> even see more rain fade on LTU than airmax because it's so bad with >> multipathing. Any fresnel infraction and LTU degrades at 2-3x the rate >> that airmax does. >> >> Wave's 16 client limitation is a challenge, looking forward to the mesh >> units (omni). We don't have any saturated APs yet but I'm sure that's >> coming. Doing a 6 AP 180 degree deployment next week and hoping to get >> near 100 subs directly off of that in ~2 months. >> >> I'm holding some of that AX gear in hand... no AP to compare against >> though :/ High hopes considering what we get out of force 4xx which is >> 'plain' AX. I don't know how soon we'll see something, zero FCC leaks on a >> new AP so kinda waiting on that. >> >> I sht on ubiquiti a lot, mostly because the company likes to pull the rug >> on customers and leave them with obsolete hardware and perpetual bugs, and >> doesn't seem to ask any operators what we need, and the list goes on. That >> said, it's far faster and easier to deploy ubiquiti gear than anything >> else. Installers love it. The price is great. If UI drops a 4x4-8x8 90 >> degree AX AP we will almost certainly go that route over cambium. >> >> I've run or am running most brands out there with few exceptions. >> Frankly, we're getting just as good or better performance out of ubiquiti >> gear that cambium and have a lower failure rate. >> >> We also run Baicells LTE in CBRS, and 450i/450m in CBRS and we're getting >> more data through the LTE product than the cambium in nLoS. In LoS 450i >> delivers about 50% more and latency is half. HATE the 450i/450m >> interface. 1995. finicky products as well, mumimo only working with many >> subs and evenly spread over a 90 degree arc which rarely fits our >> deployments. 450 gear is a huge letdown for us. 450m can deliver really >> well if conditions are right, but if they're not then it's a huge expense >> for little gain. >> >> Have held out hope that Mikrotik would show up to the AX race but nothing >> really there. I have a decent sized single radio mesh network on Mikrotik >> Omnitiks that is working really well. Using some wireless wire shots to >> shorten mesh paths up a bit. Sell 25Mbps plans off those in a low income >> area. It's a wave1 AC wireless driver so some pitfalls there, but their >> newer drivers don't support 802.11s or WDS yet so can't upgrade. Would >> really love to find a dual radio openwrt AX box to run batman-adv on for a >> dual radio mesh but haven't found such a thing yet. >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 6:43 PM Mark Steckel >> wrote: >> >>> Dan, >>> >>> Really appreciate the detailed breakdown of the various vendor gear. >>> Very helpful. >>> >>> We started Airmax AC, dabbled with LTU but don't trust it enough to >>> really deploy. Waiting for things to shake out a bit before we build out >>> broadcast on a new major site. (There is 200 units in the building and >>> people are switching from Comcast to us in droves, so can wait on the >>> broadcast equipment.) >>> >>> Have deployed some of the gen 1 Wave APs using AF50-LR as CPEs. Not as >>> big a fan as you yet. Finally received a couple of the new gen2 Wave APs. >>> planing to deploy them in the next couple of weeks along with Wave CPEs. >>> Cautiously optimisitc. >>> >>> My biggest concern about the Wave APs is the current limit of 16 >>> clients. Hopefully Ubnt will increase this to 32, other wise will have to >>> think about a lot more micro-pops. >>> >>> Any insight into Ubnt's new Airmax AX line? >>> >>> We have 3.3 km AF11 link that has been rock solid for 3 years. Signal >>> hovers around -35 dBm. This past May, an insane storm* just massively >>> dumped rain for 8 minutes. Never seen anything like it. The rain caused 34 >>> dBm of fade. even so, the link stayed up and the signal recovered quickly. >>> A typical heavy storm usually causes only about 5 dBm of fade. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> * Mid-Atlantic coast >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:25:10 -0400 *dan via LibreQoS >>> >* >>> wrote --- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and >>> bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to >>> nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people trying >>> to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60 >>> with *really good antennas* into the office market... >>> >>> big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. >>> >>> >>> I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there. >>> >>> 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain. Longest shot on network >>> right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid >>> 300Mbps across this with zero fade. Actually gets a tiny bit better in the >>> rain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it's a >>> minor improvement. >>> >>> I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps. And a 10 >>> miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional in >>> 80Mhz. No rain fade. Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in different >>> distances. We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP <> >>> LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP. Works well enough though this product is >>> susceptible to noise more than any other we use. >>> >>> Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to >>> node or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid >>> CPE. Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with >>> nperf UDP. >>> >>> Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better. AF 'LR' and 'XR' >>> rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be >>> usable. Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. >>> >>> Ubiquiti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fails over. 4km w/ wifi6 >>> failover. Fantastic product... probably the one to beat. >>> >>> Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay. Can >>> get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you. These have >>> 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the small and >>> 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover. >>> >>> Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to >>> noticably fade. MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting >>> 'turning' the beam off aim. >>> >>> 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands. channels 1-4 are short >>> range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up. >>> channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer. Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playing >>> in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower output >>> power so it's 'ok'. Tachyon coming into this space as well, but unproven >>> and AFAIK zero beta deployments. >>> >>> 5Ghz <=200M service plans today with a well built network and good >>> AP/Antenna choices, <=500Mbps with WiFi6 tech. technically a bit more, but >>> with reasonable ratios this is about right >>> 6Ghz <=900Mbps plans on live beta users. OFDMA+MUMIMO is really >>> delivering here. >>> 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that with >>> upcoming channel bonding. base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, long >>> 10Gbps port(s). Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no effective >>> fade if built right. if built wrong, fade to death. >>> 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave. <=800Mbps. Technically a bit more but >>> I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it. I can however get 2 >>> customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP. Plan with built in fade and >>> intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km. Acceptable in Montana. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> LibreQoS mailing list >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> LibreQoS mailing list >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >