From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112c.google.com (mail-yw1-x112c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00AFA3B29D for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112c.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-333a4a5d495so114025947b3.10 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 06:58:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=f6gO5WMH9/zgL98w/KHEZ/z0VyrfQXY1bAl1CmdkKzU=; b=NrybdwEG3iOjdx/oydCocoCfePQYdUUEBTU2URGuqDInFt8IQGLW/6m9QVJD0A7Zsn HHnVU5bxyyMvwn9yfwDxkH+3jaD3aJnxMPipeAN/Zqqa+R/snpJ4bn7ILTDLFzyzmodI AiNo+Cl09M6fNws5afE8tuZdshwCTBf3VHJ1tGVjnj/pTsaJjTu5iF+tsyOZ+QlpsQEt lyEG7GpNfKVgFtT2i3jLOOzEm82FDwpEGkbKLk29YVZ/oS2ZQqRiu8oYIXY94gc486eg Fnqz88Lwk8tttrGO/BnqcqS+EON31AZEm3EIG5eOCJ8rykLIX/SGVJWFS2LgIzdPUIGK qTIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=f6gO5WMH9/zgL98w/KHEZ/z0VyrfQXY1bAl1CmdkKzU=; b=WEyQoRGbxo5Ke5X+phY89Pi1Wx/FKzbM3rlK6LAMLPwLTTewDjX+gmUS+hLd27AQ9d wknOYnCjhfVaK9IUEiUmGvvykR6DHq8NP4SY1mxoUCu1j9tdOVgjQABTbiTwZCSD8Gzx efePSu/ZItb8QcCqRvIWAyGzxTToVhdEnx292FKTsKPsSM0G+UuB5niJLYuODCvUm/45 9ywOpDKZU6ISg4UxK5j5VeWSpU36sWVe4CNdkQBd3kZpSDIx51OEnY6WhvyHLfp223Ev ccV62vkT1ymCZzsuX9etBCM003YgpiD/jKMYcd/iglz96nYnkShLYoCC6/iXeUwQelY+ QYcg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2Qm9vWZopkutfaDuouFouQKuyQ0Hj1ZsHVH7Jus+KNeF4wYcTC bf7pYGa3ArCEJqd/K5MoORvcuPa6Nu+dU2Sb/2jp8hrqcWU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6623zUfB4OhOeEHmAfnFtR9rWEcsa+Wiyd2c1FQw15jJo6mUrYSxyo5nmWs3HzzHul9XyIYUY1TcyjLHLoBR4= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:d9ca:0:b0:368:2d00:40c2 with SMTP id b193-20020a0dd9ca000000b003682d0040c2mr26349986ywe.195.1666706327226; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 06:58:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1840c985e8a.10a591cd51731229.8068763504739272117@phillywisper.net> In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 07:58:35 -0600 Message-ID: To: Herbert Wolverson Cc: libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000944e7205ebdc4ee4" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 13:58:48 -0000 --000000000000944e7205ebdc4ee4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" LTE is our primary '5Ghz didn't work' and 450i/450m the secondary. primarily due to cost. Baicells UI has zero advantage on Cambium's lol. But I can push 50Mbps through a -80 RSSI every day and nothing else can do that (short of Tarana...) On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS < libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > I figured LTU was in trouble when they promised the moon, took years to > deliver anything, features kept dropping off the list and they went on a > posting spree of how MU-MIMO couldn't work outdoors. Glad we stayed away > from that one; it looks like Ubiquiti are quietly dropping it and going > 802.11AX, which has the important features they dropped (OFDMA with tiny > sub-channels, in particular). > > We have a bunch of 450m "medusa" running here (all 3ghz CBRS). Once we > found the magic combination of 5ms frames, GPS (via a SyncBox Junior), and > LTE Co-Existence Mode 2 (we have a lot of T-mobile in the area) it's been > pretty awesome. Top speeds aren't all that amazing (you can get 100 mbps > out of it), but it'll get 75 Mbps through some maple trees at 8 miles - and > that's really useful. Grouping has improved a bit in recent firmwares, but > still falls apart completely if you have more than 3-4 SMs who show up as > "not eligible" in sounding statistics. You have to watch the spatial > utilization from time to time to make sure you haven't flooded one of the > sub-channels. Overall, though - we've been really happy with it. We > haven't loaded one much about 30 subscribers yet, and tend to use it as a > "5.x Ghz didn't work here" - but it really pushes the bits with 28 SMs at > 8X and a couple of not-so-great ones. > > The UI is funny. Many, many years ago we had Motorola WiMAX (the carrier > grade stuff that still had "clearwire" baked into the UI). The UI was > absolutely terrible. I'm pretty sure the Motorola group who developed it > went on to the Canopy group, because it's just like being back on that > system... (I poked around in one of their EMS management scripts and found > a hundred lines of x=1; y=1; x=y; y=x-y; etc. with a comment at the end /// > This should help my LoC count). I hope Cambium didn't keep that bit. :-| > > We shied away from LTE, WiMAX burned a hole in our heads and our pockets! > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:25 AM dan via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> LTU.. huge potential but majorly flawed product line. We've stopped all >> LTU deployments because every site we built we'd watch the modulations >> slide down over time. Every new netgear router in a neighborhood >> (practically...) takes modulations down a step. Too many mornings hunting >> for a new usable channel because of a new source of noise and >> LTU's inability to cope with it at all. We have mixed sites with airmax >> and LTU and the airmax outperforms the LTU because of these issues. We >> even see more rain fade on LTU than airmax because it's so bad with >> multipathing. Any fresnel infraction and LTU degrades at 2-3x the rate >> that airmax does. >> >> Wave's 16 client limitation is a challenge, looking forward to the mesh >> units (omni). We don't have any saturated APs yet but I'm sure that's >> coming. Doing a 6 AP 180 degree deployment next week and hoping to get >> near 100 subs directly off of that in ~2 months. >> >> I'm holding some of that AX gear in hand... no AP to compare against >> though :/ High hopes considering what we get out of force 4xx which is >> 'plain' AX. I don't know how soon we'll see something, zero FCC leaks on a >> new AP so kinda waiting on that. >> >> I sht on ubiquiti a lot, mostly because the company likes to pull the rug >> on customers and leave them with obsolete hardware and perpetual bugs, and >> doesn't seem to ask any operators what we need, and the list goes on. That >> said, it's far faster and easier to deploy ubiquiti gear than anything >> else. Installers love it. The price is great. If UI drops a 4x4-8x8 90 >> degree AX AP we will almost certainly go that route over cambium. >> >> I've run or am running most brands out there with few exceptions. >> Frankly, we're getting just as good or better performance out of ubiquiti >> gear that cambium and have a lower failure rate. >> >> We also run Baicells LTE in CBRS, and 450i/450m in CBRS and we're getting >> more data through the LTE product than the cambium in nLoS. In LoS 450i >> delivers about 50% more and latency is half. HATE the 450i/450m >> interface. 1995. finicky products as well, mumimo only working with many >> subs and evenly spread over a 90 degree arc which rarely fits our >> deployments. 450 gear is a huge letdown for us. 450m can deliver really >> well if conditions are right, but if they're not then it's a huge expense >> for little gain. >> >> Have held out hope that Mikrotik would show up to the AX race but nothing >> really there. I have a decent sized single radio mesh network on Mikrotik >> Omnitiks that is working really well. Using some wireless wire shots to >> shorten mesh paths up a bit. Sell 25Mbps plans off those in a low income >> area. It's a wave1 AC wireless driver so some pitfalls there, but their >> newer drivers don't support 802.11s or WDS yet so can't upgrade. Would >> really love to find a dual radio openwrt AX box to run batman-adv on for a >> dual radio mesh but haven't found such a thing yet. >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 6:43 PM Mark Steckel >> wrote: >> >>> Dan, >>> >>> Really appreciate the detailed breakdown of the various vendor gear. >>> Very helpful. >>> >>> We started Airmax AC, dabbled with LTU but don't trust it enough to >>> really deploy. Waiting for things to shake out a bit before we build out >>> broadcast on a new major site. (There is 200 units in the building and >>> people are switching from Comcast to us in droves, so can wait on the >>> broadcast equipment.) >>> >>> Have deployed some of the gen 1 Wave APs using AF50-LR as CPEs. Not as >>> big a fan as you yet. Finally received a couple of the new gen2 Wave APs. >>> planing to deploy them in the next couple of weeks along with Wave CPEs. >>> Cautiously optimisitc. >>> >>> My biggest concern about the Wave APs is the current limit of 16 >>> clients. Hopefully Ubnt will increase this to 32, other wise will have to >>> think about a lot more micro-pops. >>> >>> Any insight into Ubnt's new Airmax AX line? >>> >>> We have 3.3 km AF11 link that has been rock solid for 3 years. Signal >>> hovers around -35 dBm. This past May, an insane storm* just massively >>> dumped rain for 8 minutes. Never seen anything like it. The rain caused 34 >>> dBm of fade. even so, the link stayed up and the signal recovered quickly. >>> A typical heavy storm usually causes only about 5 dBm of fade. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> * Mid-Atlantic coast >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:25:10 -0400 *dan via LibreQoS >>> >* >>> wrote --- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and >>> bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to >>> nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people trying >>> to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60 >>> with *really good antennas* into the office market... >>> >>> big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. >>> >>> >>> I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there. >>> >>> 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain. Longest shot on network >>> right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid >>> 300Mbps across this with zero fade. Actually gets a tiny bit better in the >>> rain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it's a >>> minor improvement. >>> >>> I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps. And a 10 >>> miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional in >>> 80Mhz. No rain fade. Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in different >>> distances. We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP <> >>> LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP. Works well enough though this product is >>> susceptible to noise more than any other we use. >>> >>> Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to >>> node or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid >>> CPE. Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with >>> nperf UDP. >>> >>> Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better. AF 'LR' and 'XR' >>> rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be >>> usable. Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. >>> >>> Ubiquiti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fails over. 4km w/ wifi6 >>> failover. Fantastic product... probably the one to beat. >>> >>> Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay. Can >>> get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you. These have >>> 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the small and >>> 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover. >>> >>> Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to >>> noticably fade. MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting >>> 'turning' the beam off aim. >>> >>> 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands. channels 1-4 are short >>> range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up. >>> channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer. Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playing >>> in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower output >>> power so it's 'ok'. Tachyon coming into this space as well, but unproven >>> and AFAIK zero beta deployments. >>> >>> 5Ghz <=200M service plans today with a well built network and good >>> AP/Antenna choices, <=500Mbps with WiFi6 tech. technically a bit more, but >>> with reasonable ratios this is about right >>> 6Ghz <=900Mbps plans on live beta users. OFDMA+MUMIMO is really >>> delivering here. >>> 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that with >>> upcoming channel bonding. base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, long >>> 10Gbps port(s). Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no effective >>> fade if built right. if built wrong, fade to death. >>> 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave. <=800Mbps. Technically a bit more but >>> I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it. I can however get 2 >>> customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP. Plan with built in fade and >>> intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km. Acceptable in Montana. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> LibreQoS mailing list >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> LibreQoS mailing list >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos >> > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > --000000000000944e7205ebdc4ee4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
LTE is our primary '5Ghz didn't work' and 450i= /450m the secondary.=C2=A0 primarily due to cost.=C2=A0 Baicells UI has zer= o advantage on Cambium's lol.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But I can push 50Mbps through= a -80 RSSI every day and nothing else can do that (short of Tarana...)
On T= ue, Oct 25, 2022 at 7:43 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>= ; wrote:
I figured LTU was in trouble when they promised the moon, to= ok years to deliver anything, features kept dropping off the list and they = went on a posting spree of how MU-MIMO couldn't work outdoors. Glad we = stayed away from that one; it looks like Ubiquiti are quietly dropping it a= nd going 802.11AX, which has the important features they dropped (OFDMA wit= h tiny sub-channels, in particular).

We have a bun= ch of 450m "medusa" running here (all 3ghz CBRS). Once we found t= he magic combination of 5ms frames, GPS (via a SyncBox Junior), and LTE Co-= Existence Mode 2 (we have a lot of T-mobile in the area) it's been pret= ty awesome. Top speeds aren't all that amazing (you can get 100 mbps ou= t of it), but it'll get 75 Mbps through some maple trees at 8 miles - a= nd that's really useful. Grouping has improved a bit in recent firmware= s, but still falls apart completely if you have more than 3-4 SMs who show = up as "not eligible" in sounding statistics. You have to watch th= e spatial utilization from time to time to make sure you haven't floode= d one of the sub-channels. Overall, though - we've been really happy wi= th it.=C2=A0 We haven't loaded one much about 30 subscribers yet, and t= end to use it as a "5.x Ghz didn't work here" - but it really= pushes the bits with 28 SMs at 8X and a couple of not-so-great ones.
=

The UI is funny. Many, many years ago we had Motorola W= iMAX (the carrier grade stuff that still had "clearwire" baked in= to the UI). The UI was absolutely terrible. I'm pretty sure the Motorol= a group who developed it went on to the Canopy group, because it's just= like being back on that system... (I poked around in one of their EMS mana= gement scripts and found a hundred lines of x=3D1; y=3D1; x=3Dy; y=3Dx-y; e= tc. with a comment at the end /// Thi= s should help my LoC count). I hope Cambium didn't keep that bit= . :-|

We shied away from LTE, WiMAX burned a hole = in our heads and our pockets!

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:25 AM dan = via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
LTU.. huge poten= tial but majorly flawed product line.=C2=A0 We've stopped all LTU deplo= yments because every site we built we'd watch the modulations slide dow= n over time.=C2=A0 Every new netgear router in a neighborhood (practically.= ..) takes modulations down a step.=C2=A0 Too many mornings hunting for a ne= w usable channel because of a new source of noise and LTU's=C2=A0inabil= ity to cope with it at all.=C2=A0 We have mixed sites with airmax and LTU a= nd the airmax outperforms the LTU because of these issues.=C2=A0 We even se= e more rain fade on LTU than airmax because it's so bad with multipathi= ng.=C2=A0 Any fresnel infraction and LTU degrades at 2-3x the rate that air= max does.

Wave's 16 client limitation is a challenge, looking fo= rward to the mesh units (omni).=C2=A0 We don't have any saturated APs y= et but I'm sure that's coming.=C2=A0 Doing a 6 AP 180 degree deploy= ment=C2=A0next week and hoping to get near 100 subs directly off of that in= ~2 months.

I'm holding some of that AX gear in hand... no AP to= compare against though :/=C2=A0 High hopes considering what we get out of = force 4xx which is 'plain' AX.=C2=A0 I don't know how soon we&#= 39;ll see something, zero FCC leaks on a new AP so kinda waiting on that.
I sht on ubiquiti a lot, mostly because the company likes to pull the= rug on customers and leave them with obsolete hardware and perpetual bugs,= and doesn't seem to ask any operators what we need, and the list goes = on.=C2=A0 That said, it's far faster and easier to deploy ubiquiti gear= than anything else. Installers love it.=C2=A0 The price is great.=C2=A0 If= UI drops a 4x4-8x8 90 degree AX AP we will almost certainly go that route = over cambium.

I've run or am running most brands out there with = few exceptions.=C2=A0 Frankly, we're getting just as good or better per= formance out of ubiquiti gear that cambium and have a lower failure rate.
We also run Baicells LTE in CBRS, and 450i/450m in CBRS and we're= getting more data through the LTE product than the cambium in nLoS.=C2=A0 = In LoS 450i delivers about 50% more and latency is half.=C2=A0 HATE the 450= i/450m interface.=C2=A0 1995.=C2=A0 finicky products as well, mumimo=C2=A0o= nly working with many subs and evenly spread over a 90 degree arc which rar= ely fits our deployments.=C2=A0 450 gear is a huge letdown for us.=C2=A0 45= 0m can deliver really well if conditions are right, but if they're not = then it's a huge expense for little gain.

Have held out hope tha= t Mikrotik would show up to the AX race but nothing really there.=C2=A0 I h= ave a decent sized single radio mesh network on Mikrotik Omnitiks=C2=A0that= is working really well.=C2=A0 Using some wireless wire shots to shorten me= sh paths up a bit.=C2=A0 Sell 25Mbps plans off those in a low income area.= =C2=A0 It's a wave1 AC wireless driver so some=C2=A0pitfalls there, but= their newer drivers don't support 802.11s or WDS yet so=C2=A0can't= upgrade.=C2=A0 Would really love to find a dual radio openwrt AX box to ru= n batman-adv on for a dual radio mesh but haven't found such a thing ye= t.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 6:43 PM Mark Steckel <mjs@phillywisper.net> wrote:
Dan= ,

Really appreciate the detailed breakdown of = the various vendor gear. Very helpful.

We star= ted Airmax AC, dabbled with LTU but don't trust it enough to really dep= loy. Waiting for things to shake out a bit before we build out broadcast on= a new major site. (There is 200 units in the building and people are switc= hing from Comcast to us in droves, so can wait on the broadcast equipment.)=

Have deployed some of the gen 1 Wave APs usin= g AF50-LR as CPEs. Not as big a fan as you yet. Finally received a couple o= f the new gen2 Wave APs. planing to deploy them in the next couple of weeks= along with Wave CPEs. Cautiously optimisitc.

= My biggest concern about the Wave APs is the current limit of 16 clients. H= opefully Ubnt will increase this to 32, other wise will have to think about= a lot more micro-pops.

Any insight into Ubnt&= #39;s new Airmax AX line?

We have 3.3 km AF11 link= that has been rock solid for 3 years. Signal hovers around -35 dBm. This p= ast May, an insane storm* just massively dumped rain for 8 minutes. Never s= een anything like it. The rain caused 34 dBm of fade. even so, the link sta= yed up and the signal recovered quickly. A typical heavy storm usually caus= es only about 5 dBm of fade.=C2=A0

Mark


* Mid-Atlantic coast



<= div id=3D"m_-3089247424291730762m_7360277567359329839m_5528313601256239552m= _-3420012267103193488Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">---- On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:25:10 -0400 = dan via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote ---






How bad are y'all's gear doing w= ith rain fade on various techs and
bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go fr= om a working 70 db 10 mile shot to
nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I= just laughed at the people trying
to deploy 60ghz - but times change. = I see a vendor trying to ship 60
with *really good antennas* into the o= ffice market...

big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me= .


I have extensive testing with alm= ost every gear out there.

5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain.= =C2=A0 Longest shot on network right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2= 9; dishes and we push a solid 300Mbps across this with zero fade.=C2=A0 Act= ually gets a tiny bit better in the rain, ie it is technically fading a bit= but so is all the noise so it's a minor improvement.=C2=A0=C2=A0
I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps.=C2=A0 And a 1= 0 miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional= in 80Mhz.=C2=A0 No rain fade.=C2=A0 Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in di= fferent distances.=C2=A0 We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie = LTU AP <> LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP.=C2=A0 Works well enough though t= his product is susceptible=C2=A0to noise more than any other we use.
Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to node = or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid CPE.= =C2=A0 Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with= nperf UDP.

Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better= .=C2=A0 AF 'LR' and 'XR' rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km= until they're down too much to be usable.=C2=A0 Always backed up by a = 5Ghz radio.

Ubiquiti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fai= ls over.=C2=A0 4km w/ wifi6 failover.=C2=A0 Fantastic product... probably t= he one to beat.

Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE= , 500m AP to nRay.=C2=A0 Can get a little more but it's really close an= d rain fade gets you.=C2=A0 These have 'ac wireless backup in them so w= e can EASILY push 300m on the small and 800m on the nRay knowing we have ab= out 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover.

Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz,= or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to noticably=C2=A0fade.=C2=A0 MOST fade = in these bands is actually thermal ducting 'turning' the beam off a= im.

60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands.=C2=A0 channels 1-4 = are short range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links= stay up.=C2=A0 channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, only ubi= quiti really playing in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 supp= ort is at a lower output power so it's 'ok'.=C2=A0 Tachyon comi= ng into this space as well, but unproven and AFAIK zero beta deployments.
5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today with a well built network and go= od AP/Antenna choices, <=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech.=C2=A0 technically a = bit more, but with reasonable ratios this is about right
6Ghz <=3D900= Mbps plans on live beta users.=C2=A0 OFDMA+MUMIMO is really delivering here= .
60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice= that with upcoming channel bonding.=C2=A0 base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps= port, long 10Gbps port(s).=C2=A0 Build out model here is for 'In the r= ain' so no effective fade if built right.=C2=A0 if built wrong, fade to= death.
60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave.=C2=A0 <=3D800Mbps.= =C2=A0 Technically a bit more but I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wa= ve LR to do it.=C2=A0 I can however get 2 customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps ac= ross the AP.=C2=A0 Plan with built in fade and intentional fail to 5Ghz bey= ond 2km.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Acceptable in Montana.



=C2= =A0
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