Re: [LibreQoS] [Bloat] gamebench quote

[dan <dandenson@gmail.com>]

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Al, I do agree with you from a consumer's perspective.  There are those of
us that are trying to get latency to the top of the heap, which has
prerequisites of adequate bandwidth in both directions, but consumers
aren't there and big providers are also very much not there.  Still
slinging 300x20 for reasons unknown unless it's to preserve CPU/Routing
performance on aging hardware.  All of the cross connects on the internet
are full duplex so unless the access tech is limiting things... no good
reason for the abysmal uploads in relation to downloads except to preserve
underpowered hardware or to prevent customers for using it to push them to
different service packages.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 3:18 PM MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> wrote:

> Hi Dave, all,
>
>
>
> I’m taking a slightly contrarian position here:
>
>
>
> When I read, “...that latency has now clearly overtaken broadband speed
> ...”,
>
> IMO, it’s only correct when we include the efforts to increase uplink
> speeds, and can therefore minimize the complexity of low-layer uplink
> protocols. The continued suppression of uplink speeds in simplified
> marketing helps users overlook a critical factor in ISP service.
>
>
>
> In other words, all the terrestrial access “wants to be fiber”.
>
>
>
> Example: We stayed at my frugal brother-in-law’s home, where he had
> purchased the low-end rate offered by his fiber-based ISP. It was 25Mbps,
> symmetrical rates. The bottom line is that this was a perfectly adequate
> service offer for zoom conferences and streaming video viewing. My
> measurements confirmed the rates, and that packet transfer had few defects.
>
>
>
> So for me, the 3 pillars are: sufficient capacity for **all** users
> involved, symmetrical uplink bit rate, and the upstream access protocol
> should converge to zilch*, all leading to few impairments, including
> latency.
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> * this is hard to achieve without the first two...
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* LibreQoS <libreqos-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> *On Behalf Of *Sebastian
> Moeller via LibreQoS
> *Sent:* Monday, November 14, 2022 3:41 AM
> *To:* Robert Chacón <robert.chacon@jackrabbitwireless.com>; Robert Chacón
> via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>; dan <dandenson@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; bloat <
> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [LibreQoS] [Bloat] gamebench quote
>
>
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> This is surprisingly rich in useful information and quite lean on
> marketing (given that this is marketing material having easily accessible
> links to source material is unusually open*). Nice.
>
> Regards
> Sebastian
>
> *) Personally that approach would likely reel me in as customer, if I
> lived in your service area ;)
>
> On 14 November 2022 00:16:57 CET, "Robert Chacón via Bloat" <
> bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Same here. We compete primarily against Charter Spectrum in the suburbs.
>
> Gamers and twitch streamers switch to us frequently due to the high upload
> bloat and jitter on Spectrum's network.
>
> We made a page on our website
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jackrabbitwireless.com/performance/__;!!BhdT!kq0CZoKMKwb2D8vdc8m1LDfa-BJWX-jfpGlXkqKM_mh-jgFcOVh7zh5KRsV_tQ4Wp9_zLRd_OiYVkubsR8Jq6OA$>
> that tries to educate prospective clients about latency and bloat. I added
> the GameBench quote to it (thanks, Dave!)
>
> Surprisingly, some people do read it and it helps ease their minds about
> "speed" when they're used to being bombarded with messaging about needing
> gigabit bandwidth.
>
>
>
> > I'm happy enough if TDS and Spectrum take their sweet time figuring out
> that latency is important :D
>
>
>
> This! That and their inability to really do whole-home WiFi at scale helps
> WISPs offer a true performance answer to cable internet.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 3:56 PM dan via LibreQoS <
> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> This is definitely our focus.  We preach low latency first and better
> uploads second, downloads are a distant third.  We do have to advertise the
> faster speeds just to get into the conversation because Spectrum for
> example and now TDS are all about 1G or 2G services.  See my other email
> though, Spectrum's latency and jitter is garbage, TDS is actually worse
> than that to many services but I don't have a remote login to a TDS site at
> the moment.  I'm 15ms more from AWS Oregon on TDS than Spectrum, and I'm
> 20ms better than Spectrum on Lumen DIA.
>
> I'm happy enough if TDS and Spectrum take their sweet time figuring out
> that latency is important :D
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 3:52 PM Dave Taht via LibreQoS <
> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>
> https://www.gamebench.net/network-performance-and-gamer-experience-the-us-edition/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.gamebench.net/network-performance-and-gamer-experience-the-us-edition/__;!!BhdT!kq0CZoKMKwb2D8vdc8m1LDfa-BJWX-jfpGlXkqKM_mh-jgFcOVh7zh5KRsV_tQ4Wp9_zLRd_OiYVkubsfy00yj4$>
>
> "Overall, the consistently reinforced takeaway is that latency has now
> clearly overtaken broadband speed as the focus area for network
> providers seeking to provide – and guarantee and commercially benefit
> from – optimum experience in both online multiplayer and cloud
> gaming."
>
> --
> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz__;!!BhdT!kq0CZoKMKwb2D8vdc8m1LDfa-BJWX-jfpGlXkqKM_mh-jgFcOVh7zh5KRsV_tQ4Wp9_zLRd_OiYVkubsqn1PMDM$>
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
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>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>

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