From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E86B43B29D for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 00:09:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id j130so17364966ybj.9 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 21:09:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fT2m/36ZFntgxO9sN1TloJ5dwBm9gG9M4xFuY3STa/I=; b=PiIizpC9H80tmmJdHadB6zYVcxy5dN0MfftItRF0vSPYg6P7RbsuhWViQuolv0Kp0F P4sZ//ETp0iyUOEFhnZ9+gyOXhK9eYScNwd7+2eaNTw5LkYIl6Yfkz2Kku5KvFGToK8H m4evHDf/Wh7yLY6laBNU/uttKFEN9JMHiM7Rv2uVSlyPgrI9/CBIAjozqos2sU7oI1f+ GbcWu1lh5W6ZtBXeOv0cgQcKA0GrWnYQV2pYGza8D3YDGiUJl6XenMXU1ZFSOFYukQSK 0RhOIIEJDFw1HHdj8x7b6R74xO3vo6MFS88QOaso/NwADzPMrLEKea/l3x35Q7FHEoOP rz7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=fT2m/36ZFntgxO9sN1TloJ5dwBm9gG9M4xFuY3STa/I=; b=p6A1v4zjInJbPuUttpvshrTQd/KQZL2h8iGRKgqlEm1zeBo82B1vgdlYL99Ar2QoB/ dD7KswSDPtZFBM0bQcd/+uwWHR31CvBxZgDJ1fwadBqNHRTTmdBvROue5Liz9LCj4SY7 nCuIFTgRoMadbS0ZcJJL6V7lbSKRsgTHFUNNtwd7ASJetZC5FYcOI7fQmOF6ef6SIWfv NJ0gJYbKqE57IhPu38QFXAN3yoSiCEZzfsiohoQHXFt9qvJExu6A8buCO8MH3Iu0FLAp Vel4F+whg8h5fxYLmDQ9uKky1IAZtqd9jfVI/DkV6izgUHu+DrRJvpCGfUBKdp4UQSox 09Ow== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1yLqSiL/FNoFZMTFCYQ0slEqfy0KaaV9lyikrmILB/r/mXKHb7 qWwxUEhfApQNXrOmedGxjF8gj3Yf8zGOIjdBYSLswaC6W80= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7Z4rKQ+E07Z/4V8uu0u2+S9vQArJNF2VJIaz150W7//LqUl63TNpsuloEZDXi+mXoVl9fA3YXmRh6CDWXvFT0= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:2c6:0:b0:6c4:c6f:d158 with SMTP id h6-20020a5b02c6000000b006c40c6fd158mr35905668ybp.448.1666757396624; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 21:09:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <184121f0fd2.bb94d86e2041327.1777407868200201335@phillywisper.net> In-Reply-To: <184121f0fd2.bb94d86e2041327.1777407868200201335@phillywisper.net> From: dan Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:09:45 -0600 Message-ID: To: Mark Steckel Cc: libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008d7a2505ebe83280" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] 10G radios Was: Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 04:09:58 -0000 --0000000000008d7a2505ebe83280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Siklu is great, service and support are ok. Aviat is also great, a bit more money, but better support via their reps. One issue with siklu that aviat doesn=E2=80=99t have is that siklu support is all in Israel so you ha= ve some delays but it=E2=80=99s manageable. 8010 is really hard to beat. Also? Si= klu pairs up with a dual band dish so you can slap on an Af5xhd or force 400c and pass that through the siklu for hitless failover. On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:29 PM Mark Steckel wrote: > Dan, > > ---- On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:22:04 -0400 dan via LibreQoS wrote --- > > > > As far as FSO, interesting but 80Ghz is basically better in every way > and those radios are coming down in price pretty quickly. 10Gbps FDX li= nk > on siklu 8010 is under $6k if you have a good rep. > > Do you have any experience with Aviat or other 80 GHz radios? Planning to > purchase some links in the next few months and I'm look for unbiased info= . > > Thanks > Mark > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:57 AM Dave Taht dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 4:25 PM dan dandenson@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and > > >> bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to > > >> nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people > trying > > >> to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship = 60 > > >> with *really good antennas* into the office market... > > >> > > >> big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. > > >> > > > > > > I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there. > > > > > > 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain. Longest shot on network > right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid > 300Mbps across this with zero fade. Actually gets a tiny bit better in t= he > rain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it's a > minor improvement. > > > > > > I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps. And a > 10 miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional = in > 80Mhz. No rain fade. Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in different > distances. We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP > LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP. Works well enough though this product is > susceptible to noise more than any other we use. > > > > > > Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node t= o > node or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released m= id > CPE. Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook wit= h > nperf UDP. > > > > > > Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better. AF 'LR' and > 'XR' rock solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be > usable. Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. > > > > > > Ubiquiti Wave, legit APCPE out 2km and never fails over. 4km w/ > wifi6 failover. Fantastic product... probably the one to beat. > > > > > > Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay. > Can get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you. Thes= e > have 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the small > and 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failove= r. > > > > > > Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to > noticably fade. MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting > 'turning' the beam off aim. > > > > > > 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands. channels 1-4 are shor= t > range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up. > channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer. Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playin= g > in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower outpu= t > power so it's 'ok'. Tachyon coming into this space as well, but unproven > and AFAIK zero beta deployments. > > > > > > 5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today with a well built network and goo= d > AP/Antenna choices, <=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech. technically a bit more,= but > with reasonable ratios this is about right > > > 6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta users. OFDMA+MUMIMO is really > delivering here. > > > 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that > with upcoming channel bonding. base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, lo= ng > 10Gbps port(s). Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no effectiv= e > fade if built right. if built wrong, fade to death. > > > 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave. <=3D800Mbps. Technically a bit m= ore > but I haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it. I can however g= et > 2 customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP. Plan with built in fade > and intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km. Acceptable in Montana. > > > > Thx for such a deep dive! How about Tarana? > > > > How does "Terragraph" derived tech tie back into shipping products? > > > > I've been involved with a bunch of other highly speculative > > technologies over the years. > > > > # Free space optics > > > > Koruza showed promise at one point: http://www.koruza.net/ > > > > Google's been trying to line up folk for this for a while: > > > > https://x.company/projects/taara/ > > > > # Radios > > > > ... I appreciate the data on all these radios, their relative > > performance and range. This stuff needs to end up in > > a wiki chart somewhere. ? > > ... but it's not knowing the buffering on em that bugs me the most. := / > > Got all kinds of measurement tools for that > > > > crusader, in particular, is coming along. > > packet caps from iperf sessions... > > flent to a raspi on the other side of the link... > > > > # Still a hardware guy at heart > > > > Back in 2013 I had thought hard about entering the market for radios > > in the 11ghz (and wispa just freed up a lot of space in the 10? or 12= ? > > band for future use) licensed spectrums, but I couldn't stomach > > working with qualcomm again. I have some hope a mediatek might get > > into that, and I could work with them. > > > > anyone got devices that can use channel 172 yet? That just got freed > up too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > LibreQoS mailing list > > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > --0000000000008d7a2505ebe83280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Siklu is great, service and support are ok= .=C2=A0 Aviat is also great, a bit more money, but better support via their= reps. One issue with siklu that aviat doesn=E2=80=99t have is that siklu s= upport is all in Israel so you have some delays but it=E2=80=99s manageable= . =C2=A08010 is really hard to beat.=C2=A0 Also? Siklu pairs up with a dual= band dish so you can slap on an Af5xhd or force 400c and pass that through= the siklu for hitless failover.


On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 8:29 PM Mark Steckel <mjs@phillywisper.net> wrote:
Dan,

---- On Tue, 25 Oct 2022 22:22:04 -0400 dan via LibreQoS=C2=A0 wrote --- =C2=A0>
=C2=A0> As far as FSO, interesting but 80Ghz is basically better in ever= y way and those radios are coming down in price pretty quickly.=C2=A0 =C2= =A010Gbps FDX link on siklu 8010 is under $6k if you have a good rep.=C2=A0=

Do you have any experience with Aviat or other 80 GHz radios? Planning to p= urchase some links in the next few months and I'm look for unbiased inf= o.

Thanks
Mark





=C2=A0> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:57 AM Dave Taht dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 4:25 PM dan dandenson@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain = fade on various techs and
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working = 70 db 10 mile shot to
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed= at the people trying
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendo= r trying to ship 60
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> with *really good antennas* into the office marke= t...
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >> big question to ask when so busy, please ignore m= e.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > I have extensive testing with almost every gear out t= here.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain.=C2=A0 Long= est shot on network right now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes a= nd we push a solid 300Mbps across this with zero fade.=C2=A0 Actually gets = a tiny bit better in the rain, ie it is technically fading a bit but so is = all the noise so it's a minor improvement.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 55= 0Mbps.=C2=A0 And a 10 miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushe= s 940 unidirectional in 80Mhz.=C2=A0 No rain fade.=C2=A0 Lots of af5xhd and= force4x links in different distances.=C2=A0 We even mix in some LTU PtMP a= s PTP for price, ie LTU AP=C2=A0 LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP.=C2=A0 Works wel= l enough though this product is susceptible to noise more than any other we= use.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters p= er link node to node or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-qu= ite-released mid CPE.=C2=A0 Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box a= nd my m2 macbook with nperf UDP.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even bet= ter.=C2=A0 AF 'LR' and 'XR' rock solid at 2km, up to about = 5km until they're down too much to be usable.=C2=A0 Always backed up by= a 5Ghz radio.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Ubiquiti Wave, legit APCPE out 2km and never fails ov= er.=C2=A0 4km w/ wifi6 failover.=C2=A0 Fantastic product... probably the on= e to beat.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE,= 500m AP to nRay.=C2=A0 Can get a little more but it's really close and= rain fade gets you.=C2=A0 These have 'ac wireless backup in them so we= can EASILY push 300m on the small and 800m on the nRay knowing we have abo= ut 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn= 't going to noticably fade.=C2=A0 MOST fade in these bands is actually = thermal ducting 'turning' the beam off aim.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands.=C2=A0 ch= annels 1-4 are short range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to= have links stay up.=C2=A0 channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer.=C2=A0 Unfortunatel= y, only ubiquiti really playing in this space right now, mikrotik's cha= nnel 5 support is at a lower output power so it's 'ok'.=C2=A0 T= achyon coming into this space as well, but unproven and AFAIK zero beta dep= loyments.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today with a well buil= t network and good AP/Antenna choices, <=3D500Mbps with WiFi6 tech.=C2= =A0 technically a bit more, but with reasonable ratios this is about right<= br> =C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta users.=C2=A0 O= FDMA+MUMIMO is really delivering here.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit acros= s the mesh, twice that with upcoming channel bonding.=C2=A0 base CPE 1Gbps = port, mid 2.5gbps port, long 10Gbps port(s).=C2=A0 Build out model here is = for 'In the rain' so no effective fade if built right.=C2=A0 if bui= lt wrong, fade to death.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 > 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave.=C2=A0 <= =3D800Mbps.=C2=A0 Technically a bit more but I haven't convinced a Wave= AP to a Wave LR to do it.=C2=A0 I can however get 2 customers/radios up to= 1.5Gbps across the AP.=C2=A0 Plan with built in fade and intentional fail = to 5Ghz beyond 2km.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Acceptable in Montana.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 Thx for such a deep dive! How about Tarana?
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 How does "Terragraph" derived tech tie back into= shipping products?
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 I've been involved with a bunch of other highly specul= ative
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 technologies over the years.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 # Free space optics
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 Koruza showed promise at one point: http://www.koruza.net/
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 Google's been trying to line up folk for this for a wh= ile:
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 https://x.company/projects/taara/
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 # Radios
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 ... I appreciate the data on all these radios, their relat= ive
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 performance and range. This stuff needs to=C2=A0 end up in=
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 a wiki chart somewhere. ?
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 ... but it's not knowing the buffering on em that bugs= me the most. :/
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 Got all kinds of measurement tools for that
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 crusader, in particular, is coming along.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 packet caps from iperf sessions...
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 flent to a raspi on the other side of the link...
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 # Still a hardware guy at heart
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 Back in 2013 I had thought hard about entering the market = for radios
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 in the 11ghz (and wispa just freed up a lot of space in th= e 10? or 12?
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 band for future use) licensed spectrums, but I couldn'= t stomach
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 working with qualcomm again. I have some hope a mediatek m= ight get
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 into that, and I could work with them.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 anyone got devices that can use channel 172 yet? That just= got freed up too.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 >
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 --
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia wou= ld work:
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136= 6665607352320-FXtz
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
=C2=A0> _______________________________________________
=C2=A0> LibreQoS mailing list
=C2=A0> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
=C2=A0> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/li= breqos
=C2=A0>
--0000000000008d7a2505ebe83280--