From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112c.google.com (mail-yw1-x112c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C2ED3CB40; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112c.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-545ce8e77fcso229427947b3.1; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:34:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680111294; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=j0UrkJ4Ep4Ro1rKj30BrTpaK8Ig1EgCg29aPxH6jOy4=; b=Rvj7U1r1BmVjx/CJGrVvXCzSW02VHSpj+mBBx3JFsy/yCibFaR4nJfnv/KiOzIXcQB 7L2HsMrTKU5/KhfZ7jTFrTzPg5yWTbo+q8llj+xfTUFAW7o4JgKtG+f/H34dRez6KYn3 37MjJ2fCmu8XaMn+XIn51bPUSvbzC0UcFCaOegHsHKJ8gAejGgnxPsUZDNv5CJ3MvksZ YAM9KHAQjiWy3RVUIPT1LPbKg1Ay8Ya0hQ7agOoVE5hNvQAiVttRFIcOGi0BiF7c04Wd mbumlgGYcIrBDoszAeb6BtIbr1HhRnf50Bim+FVng9igJMTMmxpupfc84hzYZxumnwmV mfdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680111294; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=j0UrkJ4Ep4Ro1rKj30BrTpaK8Ig1EgCg29aPxH6jOy4=; b=b/CurYLSKiiQUrnW9a4eznfTK1SxBvjCPX8U+eVRxPYardiCiJho0uFQj+XeVLJeWu dc492HpCSuOLuHmt12ssDRINFfGlKfzGRNeUpux0R0dM6J9YJCmpO/6AunJtL/WM0zcR ImDJonXeRae1QU0GLf7Zwo8eJoL/4dkv706xS2Bmh2/x/E4aXuz7vaey0K3pG/nFlN7t pHKRjA3xxS6Ew6LsBo1/9fVAKipCx3sPG9Day5Lczr+MFMPbAw+iPLXWth1x3484haPb SKRYN9nYpFSz6f6gaC17NquNbSbqD7TKruRWVYtCHotQq/TaqkGBEmg1sfmA6FTQkyyn ycbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eD5m+otupCQiwK82BqwyMRFmGyYsbRdG6eeSNEn4qGkTUoj7Fg 5JzPV6DJgC2HCkag4eTNcqEFSXNUWJ4W3TIQsgA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZOuzAYcqGn8LptpbGj8WgymUDu06+wx4QNdikzFCMEGXM7SmdDqTZATgzQlwv2AYKQXj+Ipx3xX47+dEM2IfI= X-Received: by 2002:a81:ac0e:0:b0:541:6dce:50d6 with SMTP id k14-20020a81ac0e000000b005416dce50d6mr9957604ywh.1.1680111294456; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1064022179695 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:34:53 -0700 Received: from 1064022179695 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:34:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mimestream 0.41.6) References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:34:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink , Doc Searls , Dave Collier-Brown , libreqos , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3b10c05f80d64cb" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Bloat] Enabling a production model X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:34:55 -0000 --000000000000e3b10c05f80d64cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mar 29, 2023 at 11:13:07 AM, David Lang wrote: > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: > > Even in the big cities where there is enough density, the results aren't > pretty. > Go back in history and look at what was happening with phone and power > lines > in places like New York City before the monopolies were setup. Moving to > the > regulated monoopolies was hailed by users as a win from that chaos > (including > deliberate sabatage of competitors) > > I'm in a Los Angeles Suburb, and until recently, I couldn't even get fast > cable > service to my home, the city owned fiber will be a huge win for me, and I > can > still have my starlink dish, cell phone, or (once they cover my area) a > wireless > ISP as a backup > > David Lang > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > When you said =E2=80=98even with=E2=80=99 you negated the previous point. = =E2=80=98Even with=E2=80=99 incredible density the monopoly structure of broadband in America today makes competition beaurocratically hard. That should be the place where we see fierce competition. Or, that should be the place the fiber has completely wiped out cable, yet it hasn=E2=80=99t. There are only so many conclusions available here. Fiber isn=E2=80=99t actually that much better = than cable, or the monopolies have non-monetary protections so competition can= =E2=80=99t move in, or maybe those areas are already properly served =F0=9F=98=95 . T= he commonality in non-rural or small-town-rural areas that have connectivity struggles is the monopoly that is in the way. Rural areas often have few options because the returns aren=E2=80=99t there for big companies, but the= y are for small companies if they were actually able to get into those markets. If you build in a monopoly in the rural areas, when they grow they will have the same issue the urban areas have, a monopoly that was paid to deliver last decades services and the only way they=E2=80=99ll upgrade is e= ither government money and mandates, or competition which you=E2=80=99ve prevente= d. You put a monopoly in place and that will be nearly permanent. Outside the scope of this debate but I=E2=80=99d rather see individual subsidies to pro= mote competition vs the government building out a monopoly. I=E2=80=99ll remind you, I run 3 ISPs. What limits my expansion is general= ly protections given to a monopoly by local government. You might ask Jeremy from the previous comment, he has direct view to 2 of these networks and might attest that we do reasonably well and are one of the ISPs putting in real effort. We welcome competition because it gives us an opportunity to be the best. Nothing better to drive positive reviews for your company than being better than the other guys. Also, in MOST of America, there is no shortage of money. There is nothing limiting multiple providers from building in. You can find places this isn=E2=80=99t true but 90%+ is it. I run my businesses covering mostly rur= al areas in a red state that is on the lower end of incomes and I=E2=80=99ve done th= is out of pocket, operating in the black, and upgrading and expanding constantly. I have 3 other wisps, spectrum, TDS, Century Link in the area. None of us are hurting for money to expand services. Also, I=E2=80=99m beating the competition to the door vs their government money. --000000000000e3b10c05f80d64cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable





On Mar 29, 2023 at 11:13:07 AM, D= avid Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:=
=20
On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:

Even in the big cities= where there is enough density, the results aren't pretty.
Go back = in history and look at what was happening with phone and power lines
in= places like New York City before the monopolies were setup. Moving to the =
regulated monoopolies was hailed by users as a win from that chaos (inc= luding
deliberate sabatage of competitors)

I'm in a Los Ange= les Suburb, and until recently, I couldn't even get fast cable
serv= ice to my home, the city owned fiber will be a huge win for me, and I can <= br>still have my starlink dish, cell phone, or (once they cover my area) a = wireless
ISP as a backup

David Lang
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing listBloat@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t
https://l= ists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

When you said =E2=80=98even wi= th=E2=80=99 you negated the previous point. =C2=A0=E2=80=98Even with=E2=80= =99 incredible density the monopoly structure of broadband in America today= makes competition beaurocratically hard.=C2=A0 That should be the place wh= ere we see fierce competition.=C2=A0 Or, that should be the place the fiber= has completely wiped out cable, yet it hasn=E2=80=99t. =C2=A0 There are on= ly so many conclusions available here.=C2=A0 Fiber isn=E2=80=99t actually t= hat much better than cable, or the monopolies have non-monetary protections= so competition can=E2=80=99t move in, =C2=A0or maybe those areas are alrea= dy properly served =F0=9F=98=95 . The commonality in non-rural or small-tow= n-rural areas that have connectivity struggles is the monopoly that is in t= he way.=C2=A0 Rural areas often have few options because the returns aren= =E2=80=99t there for big companies, but they are for small companies if the= y were actually able to get into those markets.=C2=A0 If you build in a mon= opoly in the rural areas, when they grow they will have the same issue the = urban areas have, a monopoly that was paid to deliver last decades services= and the only way they=E2=80=99ll upgrade is either government money and ma= ndates, or competition which you=E2=80=99ve prevented.=C2=A0 You put a mono= poly in place and that will be nearly permanent.=C2=A0 Outside the scope of= this debate but I=E2=80=99d rather see individual subsidies to promote com= petition vs the government building out a monopoly.

I=E2= =80=99ll remind you, I run 3 ISPs.=C2=A0 What limits my expansion is genera= lly protections given to a monopoly by local government.=C2=A0 You might as= k Jeremy from the previous comment, he has direct view to 2 of these networ= ks and might attest that we do reasonably well and are one of the ISPs putt= ing in real effort. =C2=A0 We welcome competition because it gives us an op= portunity to be the best.=C2=A0 Nothing better to drive positive reviews fo= r your company than being better than the other guys.=C2=A0

Also, in MOST of America, there is no shortage of money.=C2=A0 There is = nothing limiting multiple providers from building in.=C2=A0 You can find pl= aces this isn=E2=80=99t true but 90%+ is it.=C2=A0 I run my businesses cove= ring mostly rural areas in a red state that is on the lower end of incomes = and I=E2=80=99ve done this out of pocket, operating in the black, and upgra= ding and expanding constantly.=C2=A0 I have 3 other wisps, spectrum, TDS, C= entury Link =C2=A0in the area.=C2=A0 None of us are hurting for money to ex= pand services.=C2=A0 Also, I=E2=80=99m beating the competition to the door = vs their government money. =C2=A0
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