From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x1133.google.com (mail-yw1-x1133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B04DF3B29D for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 09:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x1133.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-369c2f83697so105789077b3.3 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 06:25:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=1nlbcVtBZXXOZYmkdSOlv2Q2Fc3gaTnU0lt7OyNq/mI=; b=PhcX4IUS69lfvD57xMQKSbuT3OvPSWsGJNX/Sm+5+CIM8PBbw0aPuwhX1bb3ZuXL1X aELLQ4a2HRrW5yp5sYzEoW32kEUPWjPcgFq3KZjA3RJ5nvVXsr1o6zj0yZmaYP7P/hbU Ew0vZNiVL2536E0Tu0NHlwNd0lLiX5sFBUF8edRWXzhGxIxEEx+DuzqckU4Z6ni02TMY Cec+CzTuQrac5hbG/AeHexgyHXb95nykCox0Ps8z0zcK4d06LsxR5e6V1QD0bPZ7Qjj5 avffvoDRJSWDI1EKVUMGxdaxxYI9obz8IwcO8gLWfEgfyPbbizUl9IXMYWWSLvs0ji/t k4gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=1nlbcVtBZXXOZYmkdSOlv2Q2Fc3gaTnU0lt7OyNq/mI=; b=W39NfbAfe0+hdyR4Uy291QJKI0MuxSlfaY6xWVqXDSEu9ULrIlmNsFp9OmYUl9/aEh V7cOvgRqvs5vCcPqiVugUOQTUYUTbPm+LiwrCK/evcQi2zUF0UgIuFcZDePw8SVjNDGf 28OifeersseDuwYyR/Ppi03VtelA1TLH2IG2sozRO9+7IrJm6H3S8nNkzDNblWLyAJCX OoNvnQpGGA5A8WGN16Qv4mNC+5Ran7QN6nf7Cbn526TrrEu7YS3UDqtmX8Y8GMkauHLC aDBTVyBEFQdqNo7CXaCdqksVqaUtULMQPlDBt0jmgbGVXOqJNHivZjrlXxItT/FQ36I9 3qrw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf35FTsWJOeN38Oshf5m0gOxwH5O/QSgr+yb7ryu9jYGYAGWY+cM v6n/cy9TkH2WDZ5GUxFLf7mxn/IKnAFb1oFUheo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5epEZhQ1/TcA8RmUdaZbQrCuXt5Yo4XIFMb6RQLYN6Abq6Po+u3vtiPRGTuqlutBHSCeOERKI4BaU+QW1x4qY= X-Received: by 2002:a81:484a:0:b0:36b:7d6c:d85 with SMTP id v71-20020a81484a000000b0036b7d6c0d85mr13731364ywa.8.1666704319852; Tue, 25 Oct 2022 06:25:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1840c985e8a.10a591cd51731229.8068763504739272117@phillywisper.net> In-Reply-To: <1840c985e8a.10a591cd51731229.8068763504739272117@phillywisper.net> From: dan Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 07:25:08 -0600 Message-ID: To: Mark Steckel Cc: libreqos , dave taht Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee36cc05ebdbd6f4" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2022 13:25:20 -0000 --000000000000ee36cc05ebdbd6f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" LTU.. huge potential but majorly flawed product line. We've stopped all LTU deployments because every site we built we'd watch the modulations slide down over time. Every new netgear router in a neighborhood (practically...) takes modulations down a step. Too many mornings hunting for a new usable channel because of a new source of noise and LTU's inability to cope with it at all. We have mixed sites with airmax and LTU and the airmax outperforms the LTU because of these issues. We even see more rain fade on LTU than airmax because it's so bad with multipathing. Any fresnel infraction and LTU degrades at 2-3x the rate that airmax does. Wave's 16 client limitation is a challenge, looking forward to the mesh units (omni). We don't have any saturated APs yet but I'm sure that's coming. Doing a 6 AP 180 degree deployment next week and hoping to get near 100 subs directly off of that in ~2 months. I'm holding some of that AX gear in hand... no AP to compare against though :/ High hopes considering what we get out of force 4xx which is 'plain' AX. I don't know how soon we'll see something, zero FCC leaks on a new AP so kinda waiting on that. I sht on ubiquiti a lot, mostly because the company likes to pull the rug on customers and leave them with obsolete hardware and perpetual bugs, and doesn't seem to ask any operators what we need, and the list goes on. That said, it's far faster and easier to deploy ubiquiti gear than anything else. Installers love it. The price is great. If UI drops a 4x4-8x8 90 degree AX AP we will almost certainly go that route over cambium. I've run or am running most brands out there with few exceptions. Frankly, we're getting just as good or better performance out of ubiquiti gear that cambium and have a lower failure rate. We also run Baicells LTE in CBRS, and 450i/450m in CBRS and we're getting more data through the LTE product than the cambium in nLoS. In LoS 450i delivers about 50% more and latency is half. HATE the 450i/450m interface. 1995. finicky products as well, mumimo only working with many subs and evenly spread over a 90 degree arc which rarely fits our deployments. 450 gear is a huge letdown for us. 450m can deliver really well if conditions are right, but if they're not then it's a huge expense for little gain. Have held out hope that Mikrotik would show up to the AX race but nothing really there. I have a decent sized single radio mesh network on Mikrotik Omnitiks that is working really well. Using some wireless wire shots to shorten mesh paths up a bit. Sell 25Mbps plans off those in a low income area. It's a wave1 AC wireless driver so some pitfalls there, but their newer drivers don't support 802.11s or WDS yet so can't upgrade. Would really love to find a dual radio openwrt AX box to run batman-adv on for a dual radio mesh but haven't found such a thing yet. On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 6:43 PM Mark Steckel wrote: > Dan, > > Really appreciate the detailed breakdown of the various vendor gear. Very > helpful. > > We started Airmax AC, dabbled with LTU but don't trust it enough to really > deploy. Waiting for things to shake out a bit before we build out broadcast > on a new major site. (There is 200 units in the building and people are > switching from Comcast to us in droves, so can wait on the broadcast > equipment.) > > Have deployed some of the gen 1 Wave APs using AF50-LR as CPEs. Not as big > a fan as you yet. Finally received a couple of the new gen2 Wave APs. > planing to deploy them in the next couple of weeks along with Wave CPEs. > Cautiously optimisitc. > > My biggest concern about the Wave APs is the current limit of 16 clients. > Hopefully Ubnt will increase this to 32, other wise will have to think > about a lot more micro-pops. > > Any insight into Ubnt's new Airmax AX line? > > We have 3.3 km AF11 link that has been rock solid for 3 years. Signal > hovers around -35 dBm. This past May, an insane storm* just massively > dumped rain for 8 minutes. Never seen anything like it. The rain caused 34 > dBm of fade. even so, the link stayed up and the signal recovered quickly. > A typical heavy storm usually causes only about 5 dBm of fade. > > Mark > > > * Mid-Atlantic coast > > > > ---- On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:25:10 -0400 *dan via LibreQoS > >* wrote > --- > > > > > > > How bad are y'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and > bands? in 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to > nothin at 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people trying > to deploy 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60 > with *really good antennas* into the office market... > > big question to ask when so busy, please ignore me. > > > I have extensive testing with almost every gear out there. > > 5Ghz, no appreciable fade in snow or rain. Longest shot on network right > now is 26 miles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid 300Mbps > across this with zero fade. Actually gets a tiny bit better in the rain, > ie it is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it's a minor > improvement. > > I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pushing 550Mbps. And a 10 > miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes that pushes 940 unidirectional in > 80Mhz. No rain fade. Lots of af5xhd and force4x links in different > distances. We even mix in some LTU PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP <> > LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP. Works well enough though this product is > susceptible to noise more than any other we use. > > Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 meters per link node to node > or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the not-quite-released mid > CPE. Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem box and my m2 macbook with > nperf UDP. > > Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1km ok, <800m even better. AF 'LR' and 'XR' rock > solid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be usable. > Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio. > > Ubiquiti Wave, legit AP<>CPE out 2km and never fails over. 4km w/ wifi6 > failover. Fantastic product... probably the one to beat. > > Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay. Can > get a little more but it's really close and rain fade gets you. These have > 'ac wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the small and > 800m on the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover. > > Basically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to > noticably fade. MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting > 'turning' the beam off aim. > > 60Ghz should be considered 2 separate bands. channels 1-4 are short > range, <1km in PTP, <300m in PtMP if you want to have links stay up. > channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer. Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playing > in this space right now, mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower output > power so it's 'ok'. Tachyon coming into this space as well, but unproven > and AFAIK zero beta deployments. > > 5Ghz <=200M service plans today with a well built network and good > AP/Antenna choices, <=500Mbps with WiFi6 tech. technically a bit more, but > with reasonable ratios this is about right > 6Ghz <=900Mbps plans on live beta users. OFDMA+MUMIMO is really > delivering here. > 60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbps legit across the mesh, twice that with > upcoming channel bonding. base CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, long > 10Gbps port(s). Build out model here is for 'In the rain' so no effective > fade if built right. if built wrong, fade to death. > 60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti wave. <=800Mbps. Technically a bit more but I > haven't convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it. I can however get 2 > customers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP. Plan with built in fade and > intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km. Acceptable in Montana. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > > --000000000000ee36cc05ebdbd6f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
LTU.. huge potential but majorly flawed product line.=C2= =A0 We've stopped all LTU deployments because every site we built we= 9;d watch the modulations slide down over time.=C2=A0 Every new netgear rou= ter in a neighborhood (practically...) takes modulations down a step.=C2=A0= Too many mornings hunting for a new usable channel because of a new source= of noise and LTU's=C2=A0inability to cope with it at all.=C2=A0 We hav= e mixed sites with airmax and LTU and the airmax outperforms the LTU becaus= e of these issues.=C2=A0 We even see more rain fade on LTU than airmax beca= use it's so bad with multipathing.=C2=A0 Any fresnel infraction and LTU= degrades at 2-3x the rate that airmax does.

Wave's 16 client li= mitation is a challenge, looking forward to the mesh units (omni).=C2=A0 We= don't have any saturated APs yet but I'm sure that's coming.= =C2=A0 Doing a 6 AP 180 degree deployment=C2=A0next week and hoping to get = near 100 subs directly off of that in ~2 months.

I'm holding som= e of that AX gear in hand... no AP to compare against though :/=C2=A0 High = hopes considering what we get out of force 4xx which is 'plain' AX.= =C2=A0 I don't know how soon we'll see something, zero FCC leaks on= a new AP so kinda waiting on that.

I sht on ubiquiti a lot, mostly = because the company likes to pull the rug on customers and leave them with = obsolete hardware and perpetual bugs, and doesn't seem to ask any opera= tors what we need, and the list goes on.=C2=A0 That said, it's far fast= er and easier to deploy ubiquiti gear than anything else. Installers love i= t.=C2=A0 The price is great.=C2=A0 If UI drops a 4x4-8x8 90 degree AX AP we= will almost certainly go that route over cambium.

I've run or a= m running most brands out there with few exceptions.=C2=A0 Frankly, we'= re getting just as good or better performance out of ubiquiti gear that cam= bium and have a lower failure rate.

We also run Baicells LTE in CBRS= , and 450i/450m in CBRS and we're getting more data through the LTE pro= duct than the cambium in nLoS.=C2=A0 In LoS 450i delivers about 50% more an= d latency is half.=C2=A0 HATE the 450i/450m interface.=C2=A0 1995.=C2=A0 fi= nicky products as well, mumimo=C2=A0only working with many subs and evenly = spread over a 90 degree arc which rarely fits our deployments.=C2=A0 450 ge= ar is a huge letdown for us.=C2=A0 450m can deliver really well if conditio= ns are right, but if they're not then it's a huge expense for littl= e gain.

Have held out hope that Mikrotik would show up to the AX rac= e but nothing really there.=C2=A0 I have a decent sized single radio mesh n= etwork on Mikrotik Omnitiks=C2=A0that is working really well.=C2=A0 Using s= ome wireless wire shots to shorten mesh paths up a bit.=C2=A0 Sell 25Mbps p= lans off those in a low income area.=C2=A0 It's a wave1 AC wireless dri= ver so some=C2=A0pitfalls there, but their newer drivers don't support = 802.11s or WDS yet so=C2=A0can't upgrade.=C2=A0 Would really love to fi= nd a dual radio openwrt AX box to run batman-adv on for a dual radio mesh b= ut haven't found such a thing yet.

=
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 6:43 PM Mark = Steckel <mjs@p= hillywisper.net> wrote:
Dan,

Really a= ppreciate the detailed breakdown of the various vendor gear. Very helpful.<= br>

We started Airmax AC, dabbled with LTU but don= 't trust it enough to really deploy. Waiting for things to shake out a = bit before we build out broadcast on a new major site. (There is 200 units = in the building and people are switching from Comcast to us in droves, so c= an wait on the broadcast equipment.)

Have depl= oyed some of the gen 1 Wave APs using AF50-LR as CPEs. Not as big a fan as = you yet. Finally received a couple of the new gen2 Wave APs. planing to dep= loy them in the next couple of weeks along with Wave CPEs. Cautiously optim= isitc.

My biggest concern about the Wave APs i= s the current limit of 16 clients. Hopefully Ubnt will increase this to 32,= other wise will have to think about a lot more micro-pops.
<= br>
Any insight into Ubnt's new Airmax AX line?
We have 3.3 km AF11 link that has been rock solid for 3 years. = Signal hovers around -35 dBm. This past May, an insane storm* just massivel= y dumped rain for 8 minutes. Never seen anything like it. The rain caused 3= 4 dBm of fade. even so, the link stayed up and the signal recovered quickly= . A typical heavy storm usually causes only about 5 dBm of fade.=C2=A0
<= /div>

Mark


*= Mid-Atlantic coast



---- On Mon, 24 Oct 2022 19:25:10 -0400 dan = via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote ---
<= div>





How bad are y= 'all's gear doing with rain fade on various techs and
bands? in= 08, in nica, I'd go from a working 70 db 10 mile shot to
nothin at= 5ghz when it rained, and I just laughed at the people trying
to deploy= 60ghz - but times change. I see a vendor trying to ship 60
with *reall= y good antennas* into the office market...

big question to ask whe= n so busy, please ignore me.


I have= extensive testing with almost every gear out there.

5Ghz, no apprec= iable fade in snow or rain.=C2=A0 Longest shot on network right now is 26 m= iles on AF5xHD 5Ghz on 2' dishes and we push a solid 300Mbps across thi= s with zero fade.=C2=A0 Actually gets a tiny bit better in the rain, ie it = is technically fading a bit but so is all the noise so it's a minor imp= rovement.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I have 2x 7 miles force 425 links that are pus= hing 550Mbps.=C2=A0 And a 10 miles force 400c on 2' ubiquiti dishes tha= t pushes 940 unidirectional in 80Mhz.=C2=A0 No rain fade.=C2=A0 Lots of af5= xhd and force4x links in different distances.=C2=A0 We even mix in some LTU= PtMP as PTP for price, ie LTU AP <> LTU-LR or LTU-Pro for PTP.=C2=A0= Works well enough though this product is susceptible=C2=A0to noise more th= an any other we use.

Cambium 60Mhz cnwave is fantastic, legit 120 me= ters per link node to node or small CPE, 500M to big CPE, about 300 to the = not-quite-released mid CPE.=C2=A0 Pushing 1.7Gbps FDX on against my preseem= box and my m2 macbook with nperf UDP.

Ubiquiti gigabeam line, <1= km ok, <800m even better.=C2=A0 AF 'LR' and 'XR' rock so= lid at 2km, up to about 5km until they're down too much to be usable.= =C2=A0 Always backed up by a 5Ghz radio.

Ubiquiti Wave, legit AP<= >CPE out 2km and never fails over.=C2=A0 4km w/ wifi6 failover.=C2=A0 Fa= ntastic product... probably the one to beat.

Mikrotik 60Ghz 'ay = about 200m on AP to small CPE, 500m AP to nRay.=C2=A0 Can get a little more= but it's really close and rain fade gets you.=C2=A0 These have 'ac= wireless backup in them so we can EASILY push 300m on the small and 800m o= n the nRay knowing we have about 4 hours a year in 5Ghz failover.

Ba= sically, and MIMO 5Ghz, 6Ghz, or 2.4Ghz product isn't going to noticabl= y=C2=A0fade.=C2=A0 MOST fade in these bands is actually thermal ducting = 9;turning' the beam off aim.

60Ghz should be considered 2 separa= te bands.=C2=A0 channels 1-4 are short range, <1km in PTP, <300m in P= tMP if you want to have links stay up.=C2=A0 channels 5,6 are 2-3x longer.= =C2=A0 Unfortunately, only ubiquiti really playing in this space right now,= mikrotik's channel 5 support is at a lower output power so it's &#= 39;ok'.=C2=A0 Tachyon coming into this space as well, but unproven and = AFAIK zero beta deployments.

5Ghz <=3D200M service plans today wi= th a well built network and good AP/Antenna choices, <=3D500Mbps with Wi= Fi6 tech.=C2=A0 technically a bit more, but with reasonable ratios this is = about right
6Ghz <=3D900Mbps plans on live beta users.=C2=A0 OFDMA+MU= MIMO is really delivering here.
60Ghz 'low' band cambium, 1.7Gbp= s legit across the mesh, twice that with upcoming channel bonding.=C2=A0 ba= se CPE 1Gbps port, mid 2.5gbps port, long 10Gbps port(s).=C2=A0 Build out m= odel here is for 'In the rain' so no effective fade if built right.= =C2=A0 if built wrong, fade to death.
60Ghz 'high' band ubiquiti= wave.=C2=A0 <=3D800Mbps.=C2=A0 Technically a bit more but I haven't= convinced a Wave AP to a Wave LR to do it.=C2=A0 I can however get 2 custo= mers/radios up to 1.5Gbps across the AP.=C2=A0 Plan with built in fade and = intentional fail to 5Ghz beyond 2km.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Acceptable in Montana.
=


=C2=A0
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LibreQoS mailing list
LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net=
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos


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