From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112d.google.com (mail-yw1-x112d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1515E3B29E for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 13:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112d.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-36ad4cf9132so62895237b3.6 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:30:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=92xv8Ehj6o1FDDergJqNnVMfzqv/j9VrYmh2JJMfLfo=; b=VZUlLqUuRUsE5m1nq3aQQqv3B6Dm+T5wVz1hAQ23Ymdqt/v8oNLQEbcEcReHGjpG0/ hlkLM9CM2lvWVkjw1uTN0WTktrH4XPVYu/3u7WshY+W6SGjYfBkT5aXWCzuJY3zVN+1O Q7ZwsZ6VLU47imTVxRs1F42LBV8MWpOumWQsabpU4HAXzHPivbIZDtndm/jAoh7+CbO5 1Lcr2c7YNXQ2BAZWaGUlDUUcPMN7glUAhsRfh/dXJogn/ZHFsVs/1B8h99VyfzmE/QgH ZcDUe9tsm/35lWJqY/SHAhpBoWGukbobDCfujUHmI4t1Mv1VeTC8uCvaAoCWZ9fG21Wu Xeqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=92xv8Ehj6o1FDDergJqNnVMfzqv/j9VrYmh2JJMfLfo=; b=Rvi8JUSVDeJrVg1DmA5NBNJeHeNUC+KZ4vth8XncQdIsd6Rd+merbVwduEnWrEFqZp jEdvbd3TBbVO4jZbMYVO4/8aB2D+6pPLkhVOwnpE4xJ4C/gVlSd6bEGabBP/eDRhyNQx U42igr/y1dMfJbw+jWIAyUDhP9ocQTnZ0l3oe3VEnR/AP/z8wwE+NxhP1zfT/s33MMtV pE0CbPlkfMCuz+x7gE87Rq+2BpGUFCd/5V1GC2GvfYflEpu/nWNdQUL3InwIpT4hf3C8 FjSJOy2s0PslSz8kZMlWdLhWHulTGZtpklyNAuwOWpzMkonuWXcbFbCwVQx3/VkziIig RR2g== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf30R3ieUvEl2Av0IPERhAAn1Ut7FG/Iq41Rqe8EkYnFoFL0Odt7 HMTaHQhqLH1QD6J+tbN824rFgucdIepT2aluPJPiaTqB9qo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4iyWvhcGoxy4Y2gMHwtB91E7WDvh2uBTQsx0xyHc7ll6Gwt+mvlCJ5IGqvsNH0lLEUXEwOF+mLLALqcl3HgT4= X-Received: by 2002:a81:a0e:0:b0:368:112d:1a2 with SMTP id 14-20020a810a0e000000b00368112d01a2mr22075259ywk.184.1666632638092; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:30:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 11:30:27 -0600 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Herbert Wolverson , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005d5b2905ebcb263b" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] ookla speedtest results? X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 17:30:39 -0000 --0000000000005d5b2905ebcb263b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable eero's traffic shaper is problematic because it's based on previous speed tests. It gets super erratic. I have well over 1000 eeros in the field now and have dealt with people turning it on and their service going to sht usually because of the late night speed test sharing bandwidth with some game update or something and updating the shaper. I don't believe there is a realistic way to handle client side shaping right now. Too many vendors, too many use cases, would likely require an operator to add a demarc router to every customer to shape there. Should be noted that I have asked mikrotik to make me a GPeR inspired ARM based PoE pass through router but got pretty mixed and mostly useless comments in the forums. The purpose being a cake shaper AND DHCP option 82 insertion device with some ability to do packet capture etc on prem. On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:14 AM Dave Taht wrote: > Some of the context of my request for libreqos on vs off is from here, > presentation in the wee hours, wed morning. > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6989281945868283904/ > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:48 AM dan via LibreQoS > wrote: > > > > we also have a bunch of 25/5. It would be nice to get some more > detailed numbers from ookla tests. > > +1! We've argued methods with many a provider, and ookla and samknows > are new to this game. > > As one example I don't know if they use decimal or binary mbits! > > ... > > ack-filtering in the libreqos case can and will drop acks in both > directions, due to the structure of how htb > works in this scenario, at any bandwidth ratio. I *think* it does very > little harm but I would use the ack-filter > not the aggressive ack filter out of caution. > > Secondly if you are gathering drop statistics from the higher level > htb categories, total drops will go WAY up, > and it is best to use the cake drop, ack_drop outputs statistics directly= . > > ack_drops have nothing to do with congestion control and should be > ignored in most cases. > > Also I keep hoping more will pull out ecn marks separately. Public use > is way up by e2e transports, and I worry that a high ecn ratio is a > e2e network error, which might show up as a big backlog. > > Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks. > which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks > would be better. > > An inverse log scale is needed to plot marks, drops, and ack_drops. > > I'll always be of the opinion that it's best to run cake on egress at > the cpe, first, doing all this work before it hits the wire. > Are any of you doing that? Openwrt/dd-wrt/firewalla/mikrotik 7.2? > > >We also have a lot of Eero units out there, so watching for the eero > speed test would also be great. > > eero 5s have cake (and fq_codel on the wifi), eero 6s have a somewhat > buggy fq_codel offload: > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/u7xm83/gen_2_sqm_vs_gen_3_sqm_stic= k_with_gen_2_if_you/ > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> > sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture > for x duration? > >> > >> That's a good idea (I think there's a service somewhere for finding > speedtest > >> servers?). We're discussing testing the ack-filter feature right now, > and something > >> similar would work well for that. (We have a bunch of 25/5 and > similarly asymmetric > >> connections, in theory it'll help...) > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM dan via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture > for x duration? > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht wrote= : > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:20 AM dan wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > Dave, I think that 'bouncing' is more CPU time in the browser. I > don't think it's indicative over what's actually happening. > >>>> > >>>> A simultaneous packet capture and wireshark plot of the RTTs would > >>>> also be helpful. > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:09 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3n via LibreQoS > >>>> >> wrote: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I can run an Ookla test in the middle of the night with LibreQo= S > off for a bit. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Groovy. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > From what I recall - without Libre we see download bloat of > 300ms or so. With Libre, it's gone. On waveform we see 0ms added bloat ea= ch > direction for most clients. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> The numbers report by speedtest bounce around a lot, and they ten= d > to > >>>> >> pick a lower number as a final result than I'd > >>>> >> like. If there's a way to capture a movie of it... > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > And I like the "monitor only" mode idea. > >>>> >> > Perhaps we could create the HTB tree, but just not attach the > CAKE qdisc? > >>>> >> > Technically even HTB could reduce latency by itself on > overloaded APs , so it wouldn't be true passive monitoring, but it would > allow us to compare the before/after of CAKE while still having qdiscs we > can point cpumap-pping to. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Alternatively, maybe we could use eBPF PPing just for this > passive monitoring period? > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS = < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> Are you looking for a shaped result? That'll show "whatever > bandwidth > >>>> >> >> is left on the sector" without Libre, and around the customer'= s > paid-for > >>>> >> >> target with Libre (hopefully!). > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> One thing Preseem does well is that their onboarding process > includes > >>>> >> >> "leave it in monitoring-only mode" for a week, gathering data > before you > >>>> >> >> pull the switch (although most ISPs I've talked to just pull > the switch...) > >>>> >> >> It's quite enlightening to see a before/after, even with only > FQ_CODEL > >>>> >> >> as the shaper. > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> We could probably do something similar with a "monitor only" > mode that > >>>> >> >> doesn't enable any queues (is there a TC equivalent to "dummy" > on > >>>> >> >> FreeBSD?). > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:52 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> I am curious if anyone here has speedtest results with > libreqos on and > >>>> >> >>> off, and can send a screen shot? > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> -- > >>>> >> >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would > work: > >>>> >> >>> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > >>>> >> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list > >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list > >>>> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > -- > >>>> >> > Robert Chac=C3=B3n > >>>> >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > LibreQoS mailing list > >>>> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> -- > >>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work= : > >>>> >> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > >>>> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> LibreQoS mailing list > >>>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > >>>> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > >>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> LibreQoS mailing list > >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> LibreQoS mailing list > >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > > _______________________________________________ > > LibreQoS mailing list > > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > > -- > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > --0000000000005d5b2905ebcb263b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
eero's traffic shaper is problematic because it's = based on previous speed tests.=C2=A0 It gets super erratic.=C2=A0 I have we= ll over 1000 eeros in the field now and have dealt with people turning it o= n and their service going to sht usually because of the late night speed te= st sharing bandwidth with some game update or something and updating the sh= aper.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I don't believe there is a realistic way to ha= ndle client side shaping right now.=C2=A0 Too many vendors, too many use ca= ses, would likely require an operator to add a demarc router to every custo= mer to shape there.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Should be noted that I have asked mikrotik= to make me a GPeR inspired ARM based PoE pass through router but got prett= y mixed and mostly useless comments in the forums.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The purpose= being a cake shaper AND DHCP option 82 insertion device with some ability = to do packet capture etc on prem.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:14 AM Dave Taht= <dave.taht@gmail.com> wro= te:
Some of the = context of my request for libreqos on vs off is from here,
presentation in the wee hours, wed morning.

https://www.linkedin.com/fe= ed/update/urn:li:activity:6989281945868283904/

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:48 AM dan via LibreQoS
<lib= reqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> we also have a bunch of 25/5.=C2=A0 It would be nice to get some more = detailed numbers from ookla tests.

+1! We've argued methods with many a provider, and ookla and samknows are new to this game.

As one example I don't know if they use decimal or binary mbits!

...

ack-filtering in the libreqos case can and will drop acks in both
directions, due to the structure of how htb
works in this scenario, at any bandwidth ratio. I *think* it does very
little harm but I would use the ack-filter
not the aggressive ack filter out of caution.

Secondly if you are gathering drop statistics from the higher level
htb categories, total drops will go WAY up,
and it is best to use the cake drop, ack_drop outputs statistics directly.<= br>
ack_drops have nothing to do with congestion control and should be
ignored in most cases.

Also I keep hoping more will pull out ecn marks separately. Public use
is way up by e2e transports, and I worry that a high ecn ratio is a
e2e network error, which might show up as a big backlog.

Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks.
which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks
would be better.

An inverse log scale is needed to plot marks, drops, and ack_drops.

I'll always be of the opinion that it's best to run cake on egress = at
the cpe, first, doing all this work before it hits the wire.
Are any of you doing that? Openwrt/dd-wrt/firewalla/mikrotik 7.2?

>We also have a lot of Eero units out there, so watching for the eero sp= eed test would also be great.

eero 5s have cake (and fq_codel on the wifi), eero 6s have a somewhat
buggy fq_codel offload:

https:/= /www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/u7xm83/gen_2_sqm_vs_gen_3_sqm_stick_with_ge= n_2_if_you/
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS <libreqos@= lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> > sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet c= apture for x duration?
>>
>> That's a good idea (I think there's a service somewhere fo= r finding speedtest
>> servers?). We're discussing testing the ack-filter feature rig= ht now, and something
>> similar would work well for that. (We have a bunch of 25/5 and sim= ilarly asymmetric
>> connections, in theory it'll help...)
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM dan via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.buff= erbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet ca= pture for x duration?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:=
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:20 AM dan <dandenson@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >
>>>> > Dave, I think that 'bouncing' is more CPU tim= e in the browser.=C2=A0 I don't think it's indicative over what'= ;s actually happening.
>>>>
>>>> A simultaneous packet capture and wireshark plot of the RT= Ts would
>>>> also be helpful.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:09 AM Dave Taht via LibreQo= S <l= ibreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3= n via LibreQoS
>>>> >> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I can run an Ookla test in the middle of the= night with LibreQoS off for a bit.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Groovy.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > From what I recall - without Libre we see do= wnload bloat of 300ms or so. With Libre, it's gone. On waveform we see = 0ms added bloat each direction for most clients.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The numbers report by speedtest bounce around a l= ot, and they tend to
>>>> >> pick a lower number as a final result than I'= d
>>>> >> like. If there's a way to capture a movie of = it...
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > And I like the "monitor only" mode= idea.
>>>> >> > Perhaps we could create the HTB tree, but ju= st not attach the CAKE qdisc?
>>>> >> > Technically even HTB could reduce latency by= itself on overloaded APs , so it wouldn't be true passive monitoring, = but it would allow us to compare the before/after of CAKE while still havin= g qdiscs we can point cpumap-pping to.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Alternatively, maybe we could use eBPF PPing= just for this passive monitoring period?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Herbert Wolv= erson via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Are you looking for a shaped result? Tha= t'll show "whatever bandwidth
>>>> >> >> is left on the sector" without Libr= e, and around the customer's paid-for
>>>> >> >> target with Libre (hopefully!).
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> One thing Preseem does well is that thei= r onboarding process includes
>>>> >> >> "leave it in monitoring-only mode&q= uot; for a week, gathering data before you
>>>> >> >> pull the switch (although most ISPs I= 9;ve talked to just pull the switch...)
>>>> >> >> It's quite enlightening to see a bef= ore/after, even with only FQ_CODEL
>>>> >> >> as the shaper.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> We could probably do something similar w= ith a "monitor only" mode that
>>>> >> >> doesn't enable any queues (is there = a TC equivalent to "dummy" on
>>>> >> >> FreeBSD?).
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:52 AM Dave Tah= t via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> I am curious if anyone here has spee= dtest results with libreqos on and
>>>> >> >>> off, and can send a screen shot?
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> --
>>>> >> >>> This song goes out to all the folk t= hat thought Stadia would work:
>>>> >> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroo= m-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>>>> >> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>> >> >>> ____________________________________= ___________
>>>> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list
>>>> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> >> >>> https://lists.= bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> ________________________________________= _______
>>>> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list
>>>> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> >> >> https://lists.buff= erbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > --
>>>> >> > Robert Chac=C3=B3n
>>>> >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC
>>>> >> > ____________________________________________= ___
>>>> >> > LibreQoS mailing list
>>>> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> >> > https://lists.bufferbl= oat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought S= tadia would work:
>>>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activi= ty-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>>>> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> LibreQoS mailing list
>>>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.n= et/listinfo/libreqos
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia wou= ld work:
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136= 6665607352320-FXtz
>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LibreQoS mailing list
>>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/l= ibreqos
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> LibreQoS mailing list
>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libre= qos
>
> _______________________________________________
> LibreQoS mailing list
> Li= breQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos<= /a>



--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.= linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXt= z
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
--0000000000005d5b2905ebcb263b--