From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7DFE3B2A4 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 10:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id 185so8657802ybc.3 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 07:52:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=MnLnGLJYMXvEYXEtfrYHiqm/rxs/V4NgV9Mt03MOeTo=; b=F4Ha5NdSplJ64owoCD0FuAEPSNSPnrOZsz9lssdeeWdPpxkodEYUq6Gx36Wwam3r+Q KXRQCRzy4XRHTny955OpfOJGSpUNAFnISXm2xEtwBQry37sHEpNOHcxVVM0d73WUa/1D xduI6Vp3ktQa7aqZlpBEe2fQNtEyJQ3vCnRDNoSRHFuU/0K5djgj91VaAe8CM1bIxHMy kBeki8VSlCOpsSNGCDi28ybKcUCwoshpc0kxqHW6Ec92eLUjiGim3B9y1KgM6leDko9I 3CEJJ0+8IKKR2EfmXefT5k7/4PSCTvesYbbAimftqG5eGWYvNx02OfdedsP6Aq2QX6VB TLxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=MnLnGLJYMXvEYXEtfrYHiqm/rxs/V4NgV9Mt03MOeTo=; b=bcX0egRB4JBlpfhm8XkgFjuIiNNe85oC8GADulTXGNYT+ER1VfFOPbrSQTpQ9herFj 8Pu3Z1ttarHGlgk6CJuYjtjKpS+VOliTTDT8hRT1AptNk+siTHLtF9ORvBIzesMEv8tE G+rUHPVG4ljyhSpJ7XbQJsdXWiVKzLc1xcd36TNJFmsgMJ5iS0Dyg85Bye3U3TlrpmzR VuE5bjmB4oGZfa5J9KfTCqm55WGw65xKxI03WiX5fKFlyuY78510c3dWwt6IQ7k0L5dL uJQLu5MdmI5o2QfBU3EcYJP7XdF6o4ZT75C2nmy0uWTD/OjmTnMygE/NBZKycNweR/Sz 8cnw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1qGLjTlr3rxS6WJUBqh/jHkE500ZtHNYV+ALh40EEWeSn2WA2D 2KAMmHiukV3rzHQWzoXFOyy1aPZLQ0K2zSR949pwkpSPffY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6WYMEVQiFLv27MqyZe54sl8tR7NorPNa1Fdbl+2KuQQCoKvH5Cw5q1TSHVgMB4iX68OJnnejGwZXM3fP3fqqw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:510:0:b0:6ca:3f8a:dfef with SMTP id 16-20020a250510000000b006ca3f8adfefmr30832003ybf.189.1666795959926; Wed, 26 Oct 2022 07:52:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 08:52:28 -0600 Message-ID: To: Herbert Wolverson Cc: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ac47305ebf12d2b" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] Rain Fade (was Ack-filtering) X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2022 14:52:40 -0000 --0000000000001ac47305ebf12d2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Tarana makes me chuckle a bit. Every few years, various WISP forums fill up > with "game changer, must buy X!" and it's tulip mania > all over again. Tarana is > really expensive, and with the typical 3-5 year life cycle of wireless > products it's pretty hard to justify the cost if you have any sort of > competition, or lower population densities. Even if it weren't buggy, it's > a tough one. They also have a relatively limited window, because their > special sauce is pretty amazing but it's not *that* far ahead of what you > can do with 802.11AX and the sync extensions (and the Quantenna chips they > use just got discontinued, which is going to cause them - and Mimosa - a > lot of pain). And like all excited tulip purchases, we're already starting > to see people complain who bought it for areas that aren't the type of > deployment for which Tarana really shines. > > Terragraph is nice on paper, but it's really over-engineered. (Not that > surprising if you've ever looked at Meta's "Folly" and other code; Meta > doesn't do "keep it simple") It does look great for getting coverage out > over a high-density area. > The way I see it, and a couple of those I know that are using it, is that it's your gap fill. expensive gap fill, but just that. One guy is beta on epmp4600 and he's thinking 95% on that 6Ghz platform and tarana will be the 'we service everyone' option. It's very expensive, but complete market penetration has value. Another guy (the neighbor) is Wave is primary, tarana as gap fill. A third friend has been waiting for G2 because he's desperate for an nLoS ptmp backhaul product, he's been doing 450m 5 and 3Ghz for ptmp backhauls but the ~100M per that was once awesome is now not cutting it. > > And that's the big problem with the current wave of tech. Ranges are > getting shorter, because competing with fiber requires MUCH higher CINR > numbers. That's *great* for the high-density areas (which tend to be > getting fiber anyway), but it's problematic for the really rural > deployments. It's really common out here to have to hop 10-15 miles between > clusters of buildings, and you're still only hitting 10 houses within a > couple of miles of a POP. So "decent service at longer ranges" is a lot > more useful here than "amazing service at 1.5 miles". That's also where > they are crying out for service (we've had so many customers "leave" for > StarLink and be back within a month when they find out what high-latency, > frequent disconnect 1d6+1 * 10 Mbps service feels like) - and the fiber > companies don't want to go. We've been working with an electric co-op that > rolled out fiber to provide wireless for the areas they don't plan on ever > building into (for example, 3 houses that connect to a fiber-served road... > with a 5 mile driveway). > For us, we have a lot of assets to handle that shorter range. We still have some 'traditional' longer rural shots but we've shorted them up with narrow/high gain horns and we can push 100x20 today and a slight bump in an AX radio would make us safe from 'starlink advertised speeds'. We've had people switch back from starlink already. 2km on 60Ghz WAVE is immensely useful and legit ~850Mbps. Twice that on a low EIRP 5/6Ghz product with some AX special sauce and that's about 90% of our potential population. It's a pretty solid argument for next gen wireless agility vs slow and costly yet permanent fiber build. end of the day though, everything needs shaped so every single delivery tech is a target for libreqos. We even shape our LTE in preseem vs LTE's scheduler. Actually we do both, a 50x5 LTE Plan is 52x6 in preseem and 55x7 in LTE service plan. My small GPON deployments have preseem as well. --0000000000001ac47305ebf12d2b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=

Tarana makes me chuckle a bit.= Every few years, various WISP forums fill up with "game changer, must= buy X!" and it's tulip mania all over again. Tarana is really ex= pensive, and with the typical 3-5 year life cycle of wireless products it&#= 39;s pretty hard to justify the cost if you have any sort of competition, o= r lower population densities. Even if it weren't buggy, it's a toug= h one. They also have a relatively limited window, because their special sa= uce is pretty amazing but it's not that far ahead of what you ca= n do with 802.11AX and the sync extensions (and the Quantenna chips they us= e just got discontinued, which is going to cause them - and Mimosa - a lot = of pain). And like all excited tulip purchases, we're already starting = to see people complain who bought it for areas that aren't the type of = deployment for which Tarana really shines.

Ter= ragraph is nice on paper, but it's really over-engineered. (Not that su= rprising if you've ever looked at Meta's "Folly" and othe= r code; Meta doesn't do "keep it simple") It does look great = for getting coverage out over a high-density area.
=

The way I see it, and a couple of those I know that are= using it, is that it's your gap fill.=C2=A0 expensive gap fill, but ju= st that.=C2=A0 One guy is beta on epmp4600 and he's thinking 95% on tha= t 6Ghz platform and tarana will be the 'we service everyone' option= .=C2=A0 It's very expensive, but complete market penetration has value.= =C2=A0 Another guy (the neighbor) is Wave is primary, tarana as gap fill.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A third friend has been waiting for G2 because he's despe= rate for an nLoS ptmp backhaul product, he's been doing 450m 5 and 3Ghz= for ptmp backhauls but the ~100M per that was once awesome is now not cutt= ing it.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0

And that's the bi= g problem with the current wave of tech. Ranges are getting shorter, becaus= e competing with fiber requires MUCH higher CINR numbers. That's gre= at for the high-density areas (which tend to be getting fiber anyway), = but it's problematic for the really rural deployments. It's really = common out here to have to hop 10-15 miles between clusters of buildings, a= nd you're still only hitting 10 houses within a couple of miles of a PO= P. So "decent service at longer ranges" is a lot more useful here= than "amazing service at 1.5 miles". That's also where they = are crying out for service (we've had so many customers "leave&quo= t; for StarLink and be back within a month when they find out what high-lat= ency, frequent disconnect 1d6+1 * 10 Mbps service feels like) - and the fib= er companies don't want to go. We've been working with an electric = co-op that rolled out fiber to provide wireless for the areas they don'= t plan on ever building into (for example, 3 houses that connect to a fiber= -served road... with a 5 mile driveway).
<= br>For us, we have a lot of assets to handle that shorter range.=C2=A0 We s= till have some 'traditional' longer rural shots but we've short= ed them up with narrow/high gain horns and we can push 100x20 today and a s= light bump in an AX radio would make us safe from 'starlink advertised = speeds'.=C2=A0 We've had people switch back from starlink already.= =C2=A0 2km on 60Ghz WAVE is immensely useful and legit ~850Mbps.=C2=A0 Twic= e that on a low EIRP 5/6Ghz product with some AX special sauce and that'= ;s about 90% of our potential population.

It's a pretty solid ar= gument for next gen wireless agility vs slow and costly yet permanent fiber= build.

end of the day though, everything needs shaped so every sing= le delivery tech is a target for libreqos.=C2=A0 We even shape our LTE in p= reseem vs LTE's=C2=A0scheduler.=C2=A0 Actually we do both, a 50x5 LTE P= lan is 52x6 in preseem and 55x7 in LTE service plan.=C2=A0 My small GPON de= ployments have preseem as well.=C2=A0=C2=A0
--0000000000001ac47305ebf12d2b--