From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from strange.networkguild.org (strange.networkguild.org [IPv6:2600:3c02:e000:dd::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 532A13B29D; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 12:21:35 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iconia.com; s=strange; t=1750004494; bh=xTAxmj2JEjoTMLvkERyVKHd3dkl14ADsCFYcq/lLWkA=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc:From; b=PTeRXHzv5X+VV9ra9N3lGEqVD1c32Lg1DMd0/dT0YllIxmMV9wZOGc3x98U41GOIt jEDOF1ZXKYMISG91VRLFBDGtSvIj+0HiW1iBkd+mUTyrDSGS/bgNRJBWX0fh8+rlSb P90lVlUahkvvV9QAuGJWHYFXYi+fs4LPS7r695A8fgB1i3CGXnQmnwwLw/waFT2ODr XxuS2Z9mC+y0Shcm6btYYqU4uJfioIqs0NB0y6PS+kMH+amDF1kfjEg3KbLc+GNUKz GoJj0Xl0g4951CFdSdPHqpHaiFnUQ2f++cYcGZ05JKA9MpCf4F2aLIhIjdMxfaLQKA htfSgVEMIKLDA== Received: from auth (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by strange.networkguild.org (8.17.1.9/8.17.1.9/Debian-2+deb12u2) with ESMTPSA id 55FGLX8E1373575 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Sun, 15 Jun 2025 12:21:33 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-f169.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4a43972dcd7so49867141cf.3; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 09:21:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCV3PVFwVQ+1QiRdkMY0DP05ZOKdkBIQfsOkTGFjZz38OqSSC1y4vUIM4SdeFYlWmWDhlxC6inJQyGnx@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCVJnKM0CeWWVqb20+4y0WAm+MWKR4h6BFTXhBdMUPw7ORruis7YX11tapmqIgQ4I1Wv0rJ1Qic=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCVyBLXEs0CyUoDVlvfxcMWXYwyceJeEtwDd2OwUyTra7XMJCJiG7LMiRnLASsV2gab0iiEH@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXHhC64+DyK0JvYMZ8pDcA7puO2gN40LOgNl5QiOXraPN9FJX1uGI53QRJHAmCbZH+Q/tXjfC1oqiE=@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXPao6tYKIDrNLYcOFKVE3OA4rQbkJF+fgGy9EcsEHUVb2bNI7Wqv2mGf52HHO5vB+D4P2xnQ==@lists.bufferbloat.net, AJvYcCXa95JIvSjJbRNAKk6TVM8YCUJTkLjfXVwggCIzhzpiG6/6J10twPKvMzF4x+jgNCcb1gTfrFE=@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwbYHF8XHop4VyR9Vsuz132qNQKBOW6UCIZp62mg3KzXrY3bZcw SK5P3EMoR1DY0OP+qoarGDSnMwz4NDVxxvNgKd88oq8/uAxB6LQdD2OWvHnBLfaMm35E/G7dJw7 2liUIo5cFtdMcaAqB40Q3LdqcUqOFwN0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGcrwwRXemnWZqHfE7Q8Q+ng+A6fjgjLPRQDjxaapiHsDzoRYOPb0K9vokTgkLKxu7dS8V0p3LOheIB4RR8baE= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5953:0:b0:4a4:3147:41d6 with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-4a73c55c3cemr94382471cf.15.1750004493201; Sun, 15 Jun 2025 09:21:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 09:20:56 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFveZrq_1qHmrM61Y6QlL7C1AsLxXci31K2Maoil8te8618MxOSXMrwBN9s Message-ID: To: Frantisek Borsik Cc: libreqos , bloat , Dave Taht via Starlink , Jeremy Austin via Rpm , bloat-ietf@lists.bufferbloat.net, Cake List , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, Herbert Wolverson , =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002c378e06379eac15" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 1.0.7 at strange.networkguild.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-BitDefender-Scanner: Clean, Agent: BitDefender Milter 3.1.7 on strange.networkguild.org, sigver: 7.99020 X-BitDefender-Spam: No (0) X-BitDefender-SpamStamp: Build: [Engines: 2.19.6.1586, Dats: 871106, Stamp: 3], Multi: [Enabled, t: (0.000007,0.019125)], BW: [Enabled, t: (0.000006), whitelisted: geoff@iconia.com], APM: [Enabled, Score: 500, t: (0.012358,0.000278), Flags: BA7B0291; NN_BEGIN_TAG_NOT_OK; NN_LEGIT_VALID_REPLY; NN_LEGIT_SUMM_400_WORDS; NN_LEGIT_S_SQARE_BRACKETS; NN_LEGIT_ML_MAIL_LIST_ADN], RTDA: [Disabled], total: 0(775) X-BitDefender-CF-Stamp: none X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.0 required=5.0 autolearn=disabled X-Spam-Report: * -99 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP * 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.1 (2024-03-25) on strange.networkguild.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 14:06:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Starlink] Announcing the LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test Platform X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2025 16:21:35 -0000 --0000000000002c378e06379eac15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable re: *thoughts and feedback!* your https://test.libreqos.com tests of [Single User Test] & [Virtual Household Mode] both give yours truly bufferbloat grades of *A+ * whereas the https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat test gives yours truly a bufferbloat brade grade of *C* https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Db13810f2-e999-4045-8e8= b-ab3ab8b957c5 #1.) Why/What's the difference? #2.) Who/Which one to believe=C2=BF g On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Hello to all, > > We're excited to announce the release of the *LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test* > =E2=80=93 an open-source bufferbloat testing solution designed specifical= ly for > ISPs and network operators to deploy for their customers. > > *Link* > https://test.libreqos.com > > *What Makes This Different* > > While there are several bufferbloat testing tools available, this platfor= m > addresses a critical gap: ISP-deployable infrastructure that provides bot= h > traditional testing and realistic household simulation. > > As Dave T=C3=A4ht highlighted in his influential article "What's Wrong wi= th > Speed Tests" , traditional > speed tests fail to measure what users actually experience. We tried to > address Dave's points to make a better speed test that focuses on the > metric that matters: latency under load in realistic usage scenarios. > > *Two Complementary Test Modes* > > *Single User Test Mode* > > - Traditional sequential load testing (baseline =E2=86=92 download =E2= =86=92 upload =E2=86=92 > bidirectional) > - Measures working latency and jitter during each phase > - Familiar A+ to F grading based on latency under load increases > - Comparable to existing tools like DSLReports Speed Test and Waveform > Bufferbloat Test > > > *Virtual Household Mode (The Innovation)* > > Process-isolated simulation of 4 concurrent users with authentic traffic > patterns: > > - Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitter-sensitive for competitive > gaming > - Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mbps bidirectional, Teams simulation > with working latency monitoring > - Jake (Netflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1s on, 4s off), realistic > streaming patterns > - Computer (Background): Up to 200 Mbps continuous download, system > updates > > > Real-world relevance: Tests latency under load when multiple family > members are online simultaneously > > Advanced grading: Network fairness, jitter measurement, and per-user > working latency analysis > > *Why (not only) ISPs Need This* > > *The traditional approach of sending customers to third-party speed test > sites has limitations:* > > - No control over test methodology or server placement > - Limited correlation with customer support tickets > - Generic results that don't reflect real-world usage patterns > - No integration with ISP operational systems > > *This platform enables (not only) ISPs to:* > > - Host their own testing infrastructure with full control > - Integrate with support systems via telemetry APIs > - Provide customers with realistic household testing scenarios > - Correlate test results with network performance and customer > complaints > > > *Open Source & Community* > > The entire platform is open source and available here: > https://github.com/LibreQoE/bufferbloat_test > > We've designed this to be: > > - Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size > - Scientifically meaningful in its measurement methodology > - Realistic in its simulation of actual household usage > - Integrable with existing ISP operational workflows > > > > *Community Feedback Requested* > We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net community on: > > - Test methodology: Are we measuring the right metrics? > - Grading thresholds: Do our A+ to F grades align with real-world > impact? > - Virtual household scenarios: What other realistic usage patterns > should we simulate? > - ISP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP deployment? > > > > *Technical Discussion* > We'd welcome discussion about: > > - Measurement accuracy for working latency and jitter in virtual > household mode > - Traffic pattern authenticity (gaming, video conferencing, streaming) > - Grading methodology for latency under load in complex multi-user > scenarios > - Integration approaches for ISP operational systems > > > The platform represents our attempt to bridge the gap between academic > bufferbloat research and practical ISP operations, building on the > foundational work of researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader buff= erbloat > community. We believe that widespread ISP deployment of proper bufferbloa= t > testing infrastructure will ultimately benefit the entire internet > ecosystem. > > > *Looking forward to the community's thoughts and feedback!* > Best regards, > > The LibreQoS Team > > > *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 > > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com living as The Truth is True --0000000000002c378e06379eac15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
re:=C2=A0thoughts and feedback!

your= =C2=A0https://test= .libreqos.com=C2=A0tests of [Single User Test] & [Virtual Household= Mode] both give yours truly bufferbloat grades of A+=C2=A0

w= hereas the=C2=A0http= s://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat=C2=A0test gives yours truly a bu= fferbloat brade grade of C
=
https:/= /www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3Db13810f2-e999-4045-8e8b-ab3ab= 8b957c5

#1.) Why/What's the difference?

#2.) Wh= o/Which one to believe=C2=BF

g


On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 4:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik = via Starlink <starlink= @lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hello to all,

We're = excited to announce the release of the LibreQoS Bufferbloat Test =E2= =80=93 an open-source bufferbloat testing solution designed specifically fo= r ISPs and network operators to deploy for their customers.

Link<= /b>
https://test= .libreqos.com

What Makes This Different

While ther= e are several bufferbloat testing tools available, this platform addresses = a critical gap: ISP-deployable infrastructure that provides both traditiona= l testing and realistic household simulation.

As Dave T=C3=A4ht high= lighted in his influential article "What's Wrong with Speed Tests&quo= t;, traditional speed tests fail to measure what users actually experie= nce. We tried to address Dave's points to make a better speed test that= focuses on the metric that matters: latency under load in realistic usage = scenarios.

Two Complementary Test Modes

Single User= Test Mode
  • Traditional sequential load testing (baseline =E2= =86=92 download =E2=86=92 upload =E2=86=92 bidirectional)
  • Measures = working latency and jitter during each phase
  • Familiar A+ to F gradi= ng based on latency under load increases
  • Comparable to existing too= ls like DSLReports Speed Test and Waveform Bufferbloat Test
Virtual Household Mode (The Innovation)

Process-isolated si= mulation of 4 concurrent users with authentic traffic patterns:
  • = Alex (Gaming): 1.5 Mbps constant, jitter-sensitive for competitive gaming
  • Sarah (Video Conference): 2.5 Mbps bidirectional, Teams simulation w= ith working latency monitoring
  • Jake (Netflix HD): 25 Mbps bursts (1= s on, 4s off), realistic streaming patterns
  • Computer (Background): = Up to 200 Mbps continuous download, system updates

Real-wo= rld relevance: Tests latency under load when multiple family members are on= line simultaneously

Advanced grading: Network fairness, jitter measu= rement, and per-user working latency analysis

Why (not only) ISPs= Need This

The traditional approach of sending customers to t= hird-party speed test sites has limitations:
  • No control over= test methodology or server placement
  • Limited correlation with cust= omer support tickets
  • Generic results that don't reflect real-wo= rld usage patterns
  • No integration with ISP operational systems
    • =
This platform enables (not only) ISPs to:
  • Host their= own testing infrastructure with full control
  • Integrate with suppor= t systems via telemetry APIs
  • Provide customers with realistic house= hold testing scenarios
  • Correlate test results with network performa= nce and customer complaints

Open Source & Community=

The entire platform is open source and available here: https:/= /github.com/LibreQoE/bufferbloat_test

We've designed this to= be:
  • Easy to deploy for (not only) ISPs of any size
  • Scie= ntifically meaningful in its measurement methodology
  • Realistic in i= ts simulation of actual household usage
  • Integrable with existing IS= P operational workflows

Community Feedback Requested
We'd love feedback from the bufferbloat.net community on:
  • Test method= ology: Are we measuring the right metrics?
  • Grading thresholds: Do o= ur A+ to F grades align with real-world impact?
  • Virtual household s= cenarios: What other realistic usage patterns should we simulate?
  • I= SP adoption: What barriers exist for ISP deployment?

Te= chnical Discussion

We'd welcome discussion about:
    Measurement accuracy for working latency and jitter in virtual household m= ode
  • Traffic pattern authenticity (gaming, video conferencing, strea= ming)
  • Grading methodology for latency under load in complex multi-u= ser scenarios
  • Integration approaches for ISP operational systems

The platform represents our attempt to bridge the gap betwee= n academic bufferbloat research and practical ISP operations, building on t= he foundational work of researchers like Dave T=C3=A4ht and the broader buf= ferbloat community. We believe that widespread ISP deployment of proper buf= ferbloat testing infrastructure will ultimately benefit the entire internet= ecosystem.

Looking forward to the community's thoughts and f= eedback!

Best regards,

The LibreQoS Team


In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht:=C2=A01965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of= -dave/


=

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsA= pp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca=

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
= Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com=
living as The Truth is True

--0000000000002c378e06379eac15--