From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B96D53CB54 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 17:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id ek18so21174859edb.6 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:08:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=perens.com; s=google; t=1679778511; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rfs/fxWH9ZlVYCOgJsq8oYRO2eJPepmPCDb9x6otW0M=; b=TJRe5nEtuEv674NerJi8fYfkvkSZzDeBTr//YJqCAr3bNEI2P8DVJ+hkfaqx3mZ+mx L7X+2PRz/qIxx2O9Ysr725ZVxOFozQQoXtQBn9jrFFAriemsICa3BUGFv3pnZy2b5d1/ M6XqwYuadOsDQKfvrJ+/npi7R619vhZ1KgFJM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679778511; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=rfs/fxWH9ZlVYCOgJsq8oYRO2eJPepmPCDb9x6otW0M=; b=VlygIFjDl0MzznnEgS2xgjQdtHDZQf6NmtMg1Eaxw+2mAJDHiLq15/xYVpDCs8w2Tp lYAWXqEmDnUQSyNvPMpDcp43OOVeAnWBP4qq3hvF3AUaCHvMkPzfz6PhyCZkUSXVTj8L 07jhQ1GhnQFcz6+r9MXC2I5xoPcSi2sl5izu5iBKJvDCh+qSzkEwFQlaJj8R6tgam8Ia NOwnJPQeSWw8PEL/7Yvz2i9s0qBw9elNHR0MmVN7ncq1tk31mgOV4SKoTiXfYSn3C0+P v8ZoZlaByt8zTwxap4/8Bbvx8NGN55PzuG9kXL2zlsDiFINrR1D2gz4eg8H/ZVdAJRFp FHoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cTO8MP1fiPXYQUMB5ZE06F+MEjWSQVoOBjY2Q3m1pH6QiIOFKi uX45JEfUlW1mMH/OOxJxyhiQBFphFWqqf5A0XDfaQA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350a91lFx6G8L+93Z50f+GNIXlCeKiin7kcqdQHY0t/uguxtXd+wCbcnz+JKfPUk5Ew3XetRXyj1O6FFI9cbixUY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:3f1b:b0:90a:33e4:5a69 with SMTP id hq27-20020a1709073f1b00b0090a33e45a69mr3421122ejc.3.1679778511321; Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:08:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <005d1e7e3e1d19bce308436e46a3ec5e@rjmcmahon.com> <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> From: Bruce Perens Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:08:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon Cc: Sebastian Moeller , Dave Taht via Starlink , dan , Frantisek Borsik , libreqos , Rpm , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000078109d05f7bfe911" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 21:08:32 -0000 --00000000000078109d05f7bfe911 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital > communications infrastructure as life support critical. When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had a dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm station. This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse polarity to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the boiler in the building. Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their main Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This would not meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they still have all of the sensors wired, with cellular backup. I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant power for *every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due to storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes that fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in a generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we just had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise every home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a 4-hour SLA= . The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices this required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the legacy telco for telephony. --00000000000078109d05f7bfe911 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


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On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44=E2=80=AF= PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital communication= s infrastructure as life support critical.

= When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had a d= edicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm station. Thi= s wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble notifica= tion if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse polarity to indica= te alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would=C2=A0also=C2=A0turn off the boi= ler in the building.

Today my home fire alarms= are wireless and have cellular back to their main Comcast connection, and = detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This would not meet insurance requiremen= ts for a commercial building, they=C2=A0still have all of the sensors wired= , with cellular backup.

I don't think you are = considering what life-support-critical digital communications would really = cost. Start with metal conduit and fire-resistant wiring throughout the str= ucture. Provide redundant power for every fan-out box (we just had a= 24-hour power interruption here due to storms). AT&T provides 4 hour p= ower for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes that fan out telephone, bey= ond that a truck has to drive out and plug in a generator, or you are out o= f luck if it's a wide-are outage like we just had. Wire areas in a redu= ndant loop rather than a tree. Supervise every home so that interruptions a= re serviced automatically. Provide a 4-hour SLA.

T= he phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices this r= equired are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the legac= y telco for telephony.
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