From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5E403B29E for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2022 13:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id q83so12609869oib.10 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2022 10:59:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=domos-no.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=T2PgXbGdl5bF14YDt9FWrDfQBY/+aYmDKKiy9UIBorE=; b=w/Kl4Sq/eYyvlItzS6I9EWOCwjk9eV+wkOauzT++lkokZD35pBkvBoOFBacA8iK4pZ vlxYTa10n5a8z+uN0rcNhw2W4+onqQncH5eD5DQLEVCz226HWdSLyh1Q9jqMYyH2FrOw SmbGCAwwpK7Tm957L+BNkONwR2YHgsSdOSTmA9rf0gos8R5OV6BMEcTORe2Tx3kKgODn mbiQ7Wbf2p0qboIwH3oBHf/oK8yetu4tfxhvh35kdFBU7QrrvdtYPEv//seH41iKRRFi lGYjLxyb015+089n9yXOGl7vj/h/ryRCJEa00bxj3D2rIP0S5HEjeyTcDqq+ZRgg4IHx y/wQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=T2PgXbGdl5bF14YDt9FWrDfQBY/+aYmDKKiy9UIBorE=; b=G+NKDOagKB7mz5HZgW267+SK0GJ8y1pALuFx5OXk3oGEm17CA0r7fUS85/juRyzQRO 9nmpzSi3bQoiK3y6NM6pPZeiMAOk00Nc2mpwjbOy0IHMDGX7WmeLjNBHHjW7v4kVnNOR Baok/AzlK4lj0Etqn3lSp3eFN4s49zvuPkL/uM9VIFY8fdiqcrhWVmoBp5Ed+QxvocM5 dtQWS+ZRbpXbCFUO5hz26P4GZsfNH6bko8Hxjdg170f8KKQURn5+pCicNmZJ+HVLyhBF XKk4BeEQ//jOi4qGDzQTzbG0tljTDNqcOIAwVbDepVFB9nsrvrS66NKsRa4RVYw6CxVo m33w== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pnlxqlSlT+Yf+jokT2eD3V6TdUeHAPmU+EgyqsP4HolzsL7PwFn NVnONrQ6fqDPACOqBzl8WKhgN/kLeppH4fP+RQ+tJw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6JsrZ/j1xiDCA366Jq9+GTTLwxzrsez59IjGit8uhovuSO4vyJ7pZ1rHntEhf6g5JYo4waJuiq8Co1KX37Qxk= X-Received: by 2002:aca:2318:0:b0:354:e064:323f with SMTP id e24-20020aca2318000000b00354e064323fmr28407863oie.114.1669661962930; Mon, 28 Nov 2022 10:59:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Ivar_Teigen?= Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 19:59:11 +0100 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000032234105ee8c7863" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] Quantifying the quality attenuation of WiFi X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 18:59:23 -0000 --00000000000032234105ee8c7863 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, and thank you very much for the introduction Dave! I've been low-key following the Libreqos stuff for a while now, and I'm very impressed by what you are doing. At Domos we're focusing on convincing ISPs (EU and US mostly) that consistent low-latency is the metric they should be focusing on (and that latency performance is, in fact, generally very bad). That starts with measurements, and our solution is based around doing latency measurements from home gateways. The document Dave is referring to is public here: https://www.broadband-forum.org/download/TR-452.1.pdf It describes a standard way of measuring latency+loss (Which is what quality attenuation is; A combination of latency and loss in a single concept). I've signed up for this mailing list now so please shout if you need me :) Cheers, On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 19:00, Dave Taht wrote: > All: > > Intro to bjorn, head of research for domos.no in the eu. Attached is a > recent paper of his looking over how wifi works using their analytical > methods. > > For the record, the math behind =E2=88=86Q makes my head hurt. It has alw= ays > made my head hurt. I understand packet loss, FQing and delay, and have > been seeking a good analytical method, in paritcular, for > videconferencing quality, for quite a while. I was happy to see all > the netflix metrics go by the other day... > > Also bjorn had sent me a really big document about some broadband > forum work his group is doing, and I don't remember if that was public > or private, he'd asked me to review it > at least, and I spaced on it halfway through, and perhaps it is > published now and he can point us in the right direction. (sorry > bjorn! Terrrrrribly busy here of late) > > Domos is positioning itself as a "latency manager" - seemingly > primarily in the eu 5G and Docsis markets, with APIs to "control > stuff" at the kind of layer libreqos works at. We here > are mostly positioned in the WISP and fiber markets, as well as > perhaps other forms of managed networks... tho it would be nice if 5G > in particular was paying more attention! > > ... and we all are trying to work together to reduce latency on the > internet, and perhaps there will be synergy someday here. > > Anyway, an intro to domos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DcO-8Q1N9TKU > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen > Date: Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 11:06 AM > Subject: Quantifying the quality attenuation of WiFi > To: Dave Taht > > > Hi Dave, > > I saw your tweets about the p99 conference. This paper of mine about > latency distributions on WiFi was just published at the LCN 2022 and I > thought you might enjoy it! > > Cheers, > Bj=C3=B8rn > > > -- > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > --=20 Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen Head of Research +47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no | www.domos.no --00000000000032234105ee8c7863 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone, and thank you very=C2=A0much for the introduc= tion Dave!


I've been low-key following the L= ibreqos stuff for a while now, and I'm very impressed by=C2=A0what you = are doing.

At Domos=C2=A0we're focusing on convincing= =C2=A0ISPs (EU and US mostly) that consistent low-latency is the metric=C2= =A0they should be focusing on (and that latency performance is, in fact, ge= nerally very bad). That starts with measurements, and our solution is based= around doing latency=C2=A0measurements=C2=A0from home gateways.
=
The document Dave is=C2=A0referring=C2=A0to is public here:<= a href=3D"https://www.broadband-forum.org/download/TR-452.1.pdf">=C2=A0http= s://www.broadband-forum.org/download/TR-452.1.pdf
It describe= s a standard way of measuring latency+loss (Which is what quality attenuati= on is; A combination of latency and loss in a single concept).
I've signed up for this mailing=C2=A0list now so please sh= out if you need me :)


Cheers,
=


On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 19:00, Dave Taht &l= t;dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:=
All:

Intro to bjorn, head of research for domos.no in the eu. Attached is a
recent paper of his looking over how wifi works using their analytical
methods.

For the record, the math behind =E2=88=86Q makes my head hurt. It has alway= s
made my head hurt. I understand packet loss, FQing and delay, and have
been seeking a good analytical method, in paritcular, for
videconferencing quality, for quite a while. I was happy to see all
the netflix metrics go by the other day...

Also bjorn had sent me a really big document about some broadband
forum work his group is doing, and I don't remember if that was public<= br> or private, he'd asked me to review it
at least, and I spaced on it halfway through, and perhaps it is
published now and he can point us in the right direction. (sorry
bjorn! Terrrrrribly busy here of late)

Domos is positioning itself as a "latency manager" - seemingly primarily in the eu 5G and Docsis markets, with APIs to "control
stuff" at the kind of layer libreqos works at.=C2=A0 We here
are mostly positioned in the WISP and fiber markets, as well as
perhaps other forms of managed networks... tho it would be nice if 5G
in particular was paying more attention!

... and we all are trying to work together to reduce latency on the
internet, and perhaps there will be synergy someday here.

Anyway, an intro to domos: https://www.youtube.com/watc= h?v=3DcO-8Q1N9TKU

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen <bjorn@domos.no>
Date: Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 11:06 AM
Subject: Quantifying the quality attenuation of WiFi
To: Dave Taht <= dave.taht@gmail.com>


Hi Dave,

I saw your tweets about the p99 conference. This paper of mine about
latency distributions on WiFi was just published at the LCN 2022 and I
thought you might enjoy it!

Cheers,
Bj=C3=B8rn


--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.= linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXt= z
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC


--
Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen
Head of Research
<= /span>
+47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no=C2=A0|=C2=A0www.domos.no
--00000000000032234105ee8c7863--