From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x2b.google.com (mail-oa1-x2b.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 349E33B29E for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2022 11:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oa1-x2b.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-143ffc8c2b2so2781774fac.2 for ; Thu, 01 Dec 2022 08:38:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=domos-no.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WmVIsKtds4saLc9zlh/Id3AcA/fVo9eiZ/X5yoU6v7I=; b=gFdGTrYwlb07pNzhgDLUPohM/0fgHFBuVo9OkKvjdqhZNLXvrjhQBqGA/zlJ96l8Ji midBgJN10Hc0BdgaGmJ5H6ei8FkXZdBf4vZZ3q7ZJfr/CdyzLlERFBWxvNt8uHprxp55 bhJ2Arc/sJNqsOvrtZuu/dOITObmREPWp6UIVXvr6XLSOW3yZhCd9iKBKV1msaQ3Mybh w+mjuXGJVBSHO1lOr2+5u+8yEOCdOC18muuG+jDkgVwADkFlj/Q+3ob95yT/Y431NZmI wbYqeoo+ObPsrzFVz5h47BSyiieXcR/n8RHE6wVrp5oq1i28/wpalX6Vl/+2ujFaBllF MHpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WmVIsKtds4saLc9zlh/Id3AcA/fVo9eiZ/X5yoU6v7I=; b=6+8o5BnQhJkLeaaLQnq/EYSKu4cJSKAJ1RolSz27T+L13U/M+IuTcLoxjY0NWN58Th +8VvWIbSvOUKRyHmk/WN1z/6t1N0G5Rl/2aEAR+jeeMGUOi0zZZQC4Ai1sIyL+xQoJRK lbOYklJYxkjQFqI8RxKXKWtwHdiQJVHaDYDYwka+nGKmhy4nMDFwgOUwB37MWkoPdtd5 6ot1er6+oLYAIMHEjiMsFlMLjAhsg7ol0Hcq3RlLsHm7DJG6p5hLGcInN2dXK7M+gh/i hYVhZv9gRMd8nQ+c3HURyHk9W3hovvKJB8Sh4KoDTfW8VMEojnZMAGsZZKXWxxAO+Loq 0pTw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pl+rBqBCdmfnQMkr+wHBMkEexyCws8qDlFMujxTALlH6mA8oaAw g8Mu3YUkqKIuEgM9evlgJ31CisyG5y505h/ExG7SNg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf71zSOd8npjVYI/Xeju7jYHQS12kVYgueHEOvihTVjNZf3p2J/Y4ejK1ntmR1o0w+XfAX19pSi8bpP4DL9hCi0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:8644:b0:142:78d4:344d with SMTP id i4-20020a056870864400b0014278d4344dmr34814615oal.104.1669912736290; Thu, 01 Dec 2022 08:38:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Ivar_Teigen?= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2022 17:38:45 +0100 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000073eb7e05eec6db16" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] Quantifying the quality attenuation of WiFi X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2022 16:38:57 -0000 --00000000000073eb7e05eec6db16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of Quality Attenuation (=E2=88=86Q), I just published this introdu= ction to the topic: https://www.domos.no/blog/g89z4cra52qpet85ajfihwx0ykd7m2 It's meant as a high-level intro, so no heavy math. Cheers, On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 19:59, Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen wrote= : > Hi everyone, and thank you very much for the introduction Dave! > > > I've been low-key following the Libreqos stuff for a while now, and I'm > very impressed by what you are doing. > > At Domos we're focusing on convincing ISPs (EU and US mostly) that > consistent low-latency is the metric they should be focusing on (and that > latency performance is, in fact, generally very bad). That starts with > measurements, and our solution is based around doing > latency measurements from home gateways. > > The document Dave is referring to is public here: > https://www.broadband-forum.org/download/TR-452.1.pdf > > It describes a standard way of measuring latency+loss (Which is what > quality attenuation is; A combination of latency and loss in a single > concept). > > I've signed up for this mailing list now so please shout if you need me := ) > > > Cheers, > > > On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 19:00, Dave Taht wrote: > >> All: >> >> Intro to bjorn, head of research for domos.no in the eu. Attached is a >> recent paper of his looking over how wifi works using their analytical >> methods. >> >> For the record, the math behind =E2=88=86Q makes my head hurt. It has al= ways >> made my head hurt. I understand packet loss, FQing and delay, and have >> been seeking a good analytical method, in paritcular, for >> videconferencing quality, for quite a while. I was happy to see all >> the netflix metrics go by the other day... >> >> Also bjorn had sent me a really big document about some broadband >> forum work his group is doing, and I don't remember if that was public >> or private, he'd asked me to review it >> at least, and I spaced on it halfway through, and perhaps it is >> published now and he can point us in the right direction. (sorry >> bjorn! Terrrrrribly busy here of late) >> >> Domos is positioning itself as a "latency manager" - seemingly >> primarily in the eu 5G and Docsis markets, with APIs to "control >> stuff" at the kind of layer libreqos works at. We here >> are mostly positioned in the WISP and fiber markets, as well as >> perhaps other forms of managed networks... tho it would be nice if 5G >> in particular was paying more attention! >> >> ... and we all are trying to work together to reduce latency on the >> internet, and perhaps there will be synergy someday here. >> >> Anyway, an intro to domos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DcO-8Q1N9TKU >> >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen >> Date: Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 11:06 AM >> Subject: Quantifying the quality attenuation of WiFi >> To: Dave Taht >> >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> I saw your tweets about the p99 conference. This paper of mine about >> latency distributions on WiFi was just published at the LCN 2022 and I >> thought you might enjoy it! >> >> Cheers, >> Bj=C3=B8rn >> >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666= 65607352320-FXtz >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > > > -- > Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen > Head of Research > +47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no | www.domos.no > --=20 Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen Head of Research +47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no | www.domos.no --00000000000073eb7e05eec6db16 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking of Quality Attenuation (=E2=88=86Q), I just publi= shed this introduction to the topic:=C2=A0https://www.domos.no/blog/g89z4cra52qpe= t85ajfihwx0ykd7m2
It's meant as a high-level intro, so no heavy = math.

Cheers,


On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 = at 19:59, Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen <bjor= n@domos.no> wrote:
Hi everyone, and thank you very=C2=A0much for t= he introduction Dave!


I've been low-key foll= owing the Libreqos stuff for a while now, and I'm very impressed by=C2= =A0what you are doing.

At Domos=C2=A0we're focusing o= n convincing=C2=A0ISPs (EU and US mostly) that consistent low-latency is th= e metric=C2=A0they should be focusing on (and that latency performance is, = in fact, generally very bad). That starts with measurements, and our soluti= on is based around doing latency=C2=A0measurements=C2=A0from home gateways.=

The document Dave is=C2=A0referring=C2=A0to is pu= blic here:=C2=A0https://www.broadband-forum.org/download/TR-452.1.= pdf
It describes a standard way of measuring latency+loss (Wh= ich is what quality attenuation is; A combination of latency and loss in a = single concept).

I've signed up for this maili= ng=C2=A0list now so please shout if you need me :)


Cheers,


On Mon, 28 No= v 2022 at 19:00, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
All:

Intro to bjorn, head of research for domos.no in the eu. Attached is a
recent paper of his looking over how wifi works using their analytical
methods.

For the record, the math behind =E2=88=86Q makes my head hurt. It has alway= s
made my head hurt. I understand packet loss, FQing and delay, and have
been seeking a good analytical method, in paritcular, for
videconferencing quality, for quite a while. I was happy to see all
the netflix metrics go by the other day...

Also bjorn had sent me a really big document about some broadband
forum work his group is doing, and I don't remember if that was public<= br> or private, he'd asked me to review it
at least, and I spaced on it halfway through, and perhaps it is
published now and he can point us in the right direction. (sorry
bjorn! Terrrrrribly busy here of late)

Domos is positioning itself as a "latency manager" - seemingly primarily in the eu 5G and Docsis markets, with APIs to "control
stuff" at the kind of layer libreqos works at.=C2=A0 We here
are mostly positioned in the WISP and fiber markets, as well as
perhaps other forms of managed networks... tho it would be nice if 5G
in particular was paying more attention!

... and we all are trying to work together to reduce latency on the
internet, and perhaps there will be synergy someday here.

Anyway, an intro to domos: https://www.youtube.com/watc= h?v=3DcO-8Q1N9TKU

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen <bjorn@domos.no>
Date: Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 11:06 AM
Subject: Quantifying the quality attenuation of WiFi
To: Dave Taht <= dave.taht@gmail.com>


Hi Dave,

I saw your tweets about the p99 conference. This paper of mine about
latency distributions on WiFi was just published at the LCN 2022 and I
thought you might enjoy it!

Cheers,
Bj=C3=B8rn


--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.= linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXt= z
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC


--
= Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen
Head of Research
+47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no=C2=A0|=C2=A0www.domos.no


--
Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen
Head of Research
<= /span>
+47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no=C2=A0|=C2=A0www.domos.no
--00000000000073eb7e05eec6db16--