From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 651793B29E for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 13:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id a13so32908374edj.0 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:35:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jackrabbitwireless.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3uJm+QZ+c5jgb9yFYHx2iiruGxeegnVFFRgsGFpfJ4A=; b=Yq5bs0dm+f48HslgUVttVoKC/VpdZYk2q8eZeOw39ZT7Ni2/80xvgzXAy/ThHb1LYC w2sid2ivpwC2MUTIm5AXObAWXpZgM4MSdEenkhF7bVXMvnacUTR1JFTt7R5S7qoeX5i+ smaCAmIjzoP1xHiifTIDSVq3IohO1WvFTdm3k= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3uJm+QZ+c5jgb9yFYHx2iiruGxeegnVFFRgsGFpfJ4A=; b=Wfnb5Lk1Cs45rYJZFojMKkVW3wjxty1DoWwHdB1KjFTOncPDO8FbP4fukBzROmGcL7 wKhsHRx3tbErCkx0HhwWv9fp+EyiYv3lnQN3OpfO3b38JlsyjWIYdoJHP0JU6su3zbrN vOm54RGY4Vt1jmJ0FskIMAEfjTfhQ15g7ZDfMLU9l9vM+3Efc79KYi4ItXMXz/ui5Bgg ADU4EGRplVCjOleMXbhp0sbMCzooESAXhPiOnMFfiBCIYIZSEgN0+4A07R5Yg9daeBqr UCCcyivppMxYuQn+dcd5rP9dt+AazwBsgpgIUa2bVsyjtxMfP0HIO+4UxRUfTF4PLpNg YugQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0pK0p+oJujGVXf4rDmnWepLpTbwcy2kxksGXPC3ulcwGeyIJPB NKf3K0jz/aeNnPCuUZrZ6YrUpPc2l7rjORirHmBc8w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5Rn1TxAAiabOyIhnTbn4WZIyzgt4Wh9CGVoPeh2I9aXP4aPtSfVb+P86PxtFo0dHif3LOdLVpNSJArg9bOHvw= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:ccd7:0:b0:461:c6e9:8b0 with SMTP id y23-20020aa7ccd7000000b00461c6e908b0mr5640810edt.287.1666632907155; Mon, 24 Oct 2022 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Robert_Chac=C3=B3n?= Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 11:34:56 -0600 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: dan , libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000670ed105ebcb364b" Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] ookla speedtest results? X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2022 17:35:08 -0000 --000000000000670ed105ebcb364b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks. which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks would be better. Yup, in InfluxDB for the stats by Tin (diffserv4) we display true drops as (trueDrops =3D ecn_mark + drops - ack_drops). But we don't do it by sub qui= te yet. And ok, drops, marks and drops+marks can be shown instead - by subscriber or by Node (AP/Site). Dave - is it ok if we graph this data as a percentage of packets sent? So for drops, drop / sent_packets ? I just imagine that would make comparing different subscribers' connections easier. Question for all - is having drops / marks/ drops+marks by subscriber/circuit worth the extra modest InfluxDB CPU use? Or should we just show those stats by AP/Node? If preseem currently offers such stats at a subscriber level we can do the same, just wanna be sure I'm not overtaxing CPU. On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:14 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS < libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Some of the context of my request for libreqos on vs off is from here, > presentation in the wee hours, wed morning. > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6989281945868283904/ > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:48 AM dan via LibreQoS > wrote: > > > > we also have a bunch of 25/5. It would be nice to get some more > detailed numbers from ookla tests. > > +1! We've argued methods with many a provider, and ookla and samknows > are new to this game. > > As one example I don't know if they use decimal or binary mbits! > > ... > > ack-filtering in the libreqos case can and will drop acks in both > directions, due to the structure of how htb > works in this scenario, at any bandwidth ratio. I *think* it does very > little harm but I would use the ack-filter > not the aggressive ack filter out of caution. > > Secondly if you are gathering drop statistics from the higher level > htb categories, total drops will go WAY up, > and it is best to use the cake drop, ack_drop outputs statistics directly= . > > ack_drops have nothing to do with congestion control and should be > ignored in most cases. > > Also I keep hoping more will pull out ecn marks separately. Public use > is way up by e2e transports, and I worry that a high ecn ratio is a > e2e network error, which might show up as a big backlog. > > Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks. > which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks > would be better. > > An inverse log scale is needed to plot marks, drops, and ack_drops. > > I'll always be of the opinion that it's best to run cake on egress at > the cpe, first, doing all this work before it hits the wire. > Are any of you doing that? Openwrt/dd-wrt/firewalla/mikrotik 7.2? > > >We also have a lot of Eero units out there, so watching for the eero > speed test would also be great. > > eero 5s have cake (and fq_codel on the wifi), eero 6s have a somewhat > buggy fq_codel offload: > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/u7xm83/gen_2_sqm_vs_gen_3_sqm_stic= k_with_gen_2_if_you/ > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> > sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture > for x duration? > >> > >> That's a good idea (I think there's a service somewhere for finding > speedtest > >> servers?). We're discussing testing the ack-filter feature right now, > and something > >> similar would work well for that. (We have a bunch of 25/5 and > similarly asymmetric > >> connections, in theory it'll help...) > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM dan via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet capture > for x duration? > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht wrote= : > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:20 AM dan wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> > Dave, I think that 'bouncing' is more CPU time in the browser. I > don't think it's indicative over what's actually happening. > >>>> > >>>> A simultaneous packet capture and wireshark plot of the RTTs would > >>>> also be helpful. > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:09 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3n via LibreQoS > >>>> >> wrote: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > I can run an Ookla test in the middle of the night with LibreQo= S > off for a bit. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Groovy. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > From what I recall - without Libre we see download bloat of > 300ms or so. With Libre, it's gone. On waveform we see 0ms added bloat ea= ch > direction for most clients. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> The numbers report by speedtest bounce around a lot, and they ten= d > to > >>>> >> pick a lower number as a final result than I'd > >>>> >> like. If there's a way to capture a movie of it... > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > And I like the "monitor only" mode idea. > >>>> >> > Perhaps we could create the HTB tree, but just not attach the > CAKE qdisc? > >>>> >> > Technically even HTB could reduce latency by itself on > overloaded APs , so it wouldn't be true passive monitoring, but it would > allow us to compare the before/after of CAKE while still having qdiscs we > can point cpumap-pping to. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > Alternatively, maybe we could use eBPF PPing just for this > passive monitoring period? > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS = < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> Are you looking for a shaped result? That'll show "whatever > bandwidth > >>>> >> >> is left on the sector" without Libre, and around the customer'= s > paid-for > >>>> >> >> target with Libre (hopefully!). > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> One thing Preseem does well is that their onboarding process > includes > >>>> >> >> "leave it in monitoring-only mode" for a week, gathering data > before you > >>>> >> >> pull the switch (although most ISPs I've talked to just pull > the switch...) > >>>> >> >> It's quite enlightening to see a before/after, even with only > FQ_CODEL > >>>> >> >> as the shaper. > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> We could probably do something similar with a "monitor only" > mode that > >>>> >> >> doesn't enable any queues (is there a TC equivalent to "dummy" > on > >>>> >> >> FreeBSD?). > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:52 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS < > libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> I am curious if anyone here has speedtest results with > libreqos on and > >>>> >> >>> off, and can send a screen shot? > >>>> >> >>> > >>>> >> >>> -- > >>>> >> >>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would > work: > >>>> >> >>> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > >>>> >> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list > >>>> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> >> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list > >>>> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > -- > >>>> >> > Robert Chac=C3=B3n > >>>> >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> > LibreQoS mailing list > >>>> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> -- > >>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work= : > >>>> >> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > >>>> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>> >> LibreQoS mailing list > >>>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > >>>> > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > >>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> LibreQoS mailing list > >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> LibreQoS mailing list > >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > > _______________________________________________ > > LibreQoS mailing list > > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > > > > -- > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > LibreQoS mailing list > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos > --=20 Robert Chac=C3=B3n CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC --000000000000670ed105ebcb364b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in gra= fina?) is summing drops + marks.
which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks
would be better.

Yup, in InfluxDB for the stats by= Tin (diffserv4) we display true drops as (trueDrops =3D ecn_mark + drops -= ack_drops). But we don't do it by sub quite yet.
And ok,= drops, marks and drops+marks can be shown instead - by subscriber or by No= de (AP/Site).
Dave - is it ok if we graph this data as a percenta= ge of packets sent? So for drops, drop / sent_packets ? I just imagine that= =C2=A0 would make comparing different subscribers' connections easier.<= br>

Question for all - is having drops / marks/ dr= ops+marks by subscriber/circuit worth the extra modest InfluxDB CPU use? Or= should we just show those stats by AP/Node?
If preseem curre= ntly offers such stats at a subscriber level we can do the same, just wanna= be sure I'm not overtaxing CPU.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at= 11:14 AM Dave Taht via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:=
Some of the con= text of my request for libreqos on vs off is from here,
presentation in the wee hours, wed morning.

https://www.linkedin.com/fe= ed/update/urn:li:activity:6989281945868283904/

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:48 AM dan via LibreQoS
<lib= reqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> we also have a bunch of 25/5.=C2=A0 It would be nice to get some more = detailed numbers from ookla tests.

+1! We've argued methods with many a provider, and ookla and samknows are new to this game.

As one example I don't know if they use decimal or binary mbits!

...

ack-filtering in the libreqos case can and will drop acks in both
directions, due to the structure of how htb
works in this scenario, at any bandwidth ratio. I *think* it does very
little harm but I would use the ack-filter
not the aggressive ack filter out of caution.

Secondly if you are gathering drop statistics from the higher level
htb categories, total drops will go WAY up,
and it is best to use the cake drop, ack_drop outputs statistics directly.<= br>
ack_drops have nothing to do with congestion control and should be
ignored in most cases.

Also I keep hoping more will pull out ecn marks separately. Public use
is way up by e2e transports, and I worry that a high ecn ratio is a
e2e network error, which might show up as a big backlog.

Presently (in v1.3.), robert (in grafina?) is summing drops + marks.
which is a good idea, however perhaps drops, marks and drops+marks
would be better.

An inverse log scale is needed to plot marks, drops, and ack_drops.

I'll always be of the opinion that it's best to run cake on egress = at
the cpe, first, doing all this work before it hits the wire.
Are any of you doing that? Openwrt/dd-wrt/firewalla/mikrotik 7.2?

>We also have a lot of Eero units out there, so watching for the eero sp= eed test would also be great.

eero 5s have cake (and fq_codel on the wifi), eero 6s have a somewhat
buggy fq_codel offload:

https:/= /www.reddit.com/r/eero/comments/u7xm83/gen_2_sqm_vs_gen_3_sqm_stick_with_ge= n_2_if_you/
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM Herbert Wolverson via LibreQoS <libreqos@= lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> > sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet c= apture for x duration?
>>
>> That's a good idea (I think there's a service somewhere fo= r finding speedtest
>> servers?). We're discussing testing the ack-filter feature rig= ht now, and something
>> similar would work well for that. (We have a bunch of 25/5 and sim= ilarly asymmetric
>> connections, in theory it'll help...)
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 10:31 AM dan via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.buff= erbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> sniff DNS for those speed test lookups and trigger a packet ca= pture for x duration?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:=
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:20 AM dan <dandenson@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >
>>>> > Dave, I think that 'bouncing' is more CPU tim= e in the browser.=C2=A0 I don't think it's indicative over what'= ;s actually happening.
>>>>
>>>> A simultaneous packet capture and wireshark plot of the RT= Ts would
>>>> also be helpful.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 9:09 AM Dave Taht via LibreQo= S <l= ibreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Robert Chac=C3=B3= n via LibreQoS
>>>> >> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I can run an Ookla test in the middle of the= night with LibreQoS off for a bit.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Groovy.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > From what I recall - without Libre we see do= wnload bloat of 300ms or so. With Libre, it's gone. On waveform we see = 0ms added bloat each direction for most clients.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The numbers report by speedtest bounce around a l= ot, and they tend to
>>>> >> pick a lower number as a final result than I'= d
>>>> >> like. If there's a way to capture a movie of = it...
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > And I like the "monitor only" mode= idea.
>>>> >> > Perhaps we could create the HTB tree, but ju= st not attach the CAKE qdisc?
>>>> >> > Technically even HTB could reduce latency by= itself on overloaded APs , so it wouldn't be true passive monitoring, = but it would allow us to compare the before/after of CAKE while still havin= g qdiscs we can point cpumap-pping to.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Alternatively, maybe we could use eBPF PPing= just for this passive monitoring period?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:02 AM Herbert Wolv= erson via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Are you looking for a shaped result? Tha= t'll show "whatever bandwidth
>>>> >> >> is left on the sector" without Libr= e, and around the customer's paid-for
>>>> >> >> target with Libre (hopefully!).
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> One thing Preseem does well is that thei= r onboarding process includes
>>>> >> >> "leave it in monitoring-only mode&q= uot; for a week, gathering data before you
>>>> >> >> pull the switch (although most ISPs I= 9;ve talked to just pull the switch...)
>>>> >> >> It's quite enlightening to see a bef= ore/after, even with only FQ_CODEL
>>>> >> >> as the shaper.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> We could probably do something similar w= ith a "monitor only" mode that
>>>> >> >> doesn't enable any queues (is there = a TC equivalent to "dummy" on
>>>> >> >> FreeBSD?).
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:52 AM Dave Tah= t via LibreQoS <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> I am curious if anyone here has spee= dtest results with libreqos on and
>>>> >> >>> off, and can send a screen shot?
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> --
>>>> >> >>> This song goes out to all the folk t= hat thought Stadia would work:
>>>> >> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroo= m-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>>>> >> >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>> >> >>> ____________________________________= ___________
>>>> >> >>> LibreQoS mailing list
>>>> >> >>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> >> >>> https://lists.= bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> ________________________________________= _______
>>>> >> >> LibreQoS mailing list
>>>> >> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> >> >> https://lists.buff= erbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > --
>>>> >> > Robert Chac=C3=B3n
>>>> >> > CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC
>>>> >> > ____________________________________________= ___
>>>> >> > LibreQoS mailing list
>>>> >> > LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> >> > https://lists.bufferbl= oat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought S= tadia would work:
>>>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activi= ty-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>>>> >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> LibreQoS mailing list
>>>> >> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.n= et/listinfo/libreqos
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia wou= ld work:
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136= 6665607352320-FXtz
>>>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> LibreQoS mailing list
>>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/l= ibreqos
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> LibreQoS mailing list
>> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libre= qos
>
> _______________________________________________
> LibreQoS mailing list
> Li= breQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos<= /a>



--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.= linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXt= z
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
LibreQoS mailing list
LibreQo= S@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos


--
Robert Chac=C3=B3n
CEO | JackRabbit Wireless LLC
--000000000000670ed105ebcb364b--