From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 063713CB52; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 08:32:00 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1679401919; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=HKF1gEIH+9xTKMvQAeKGpT7d/aG+QJ0PescApVCkXfw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=NQSqI4qzrWnJthUz6ti2cD+QWQqbyaA27m7ezsiiECxPqDv/wGEjXxwan4OTfsCTy UK5XnYvtrF4uu1ALum6Gma/mTdLFPoOG220dBLic2iUlItDzL/ObxX3mmR2gR3LtSB +coal4rMGKkohwziP+kNf4hr9ZdQhqTQI3owqWvOGhOLAusbFxFzY0vmagUmhzHKPF 3g9XbjOtt9CEe257Umazevs5QII5+F4um+KRSps4ABvOy78c/s01avTC79+nQGnb0m B0WDeJ8csjmgYJAfhQzTUP058LHCT4JIimL0q2VwQ474Qh+ka9A76n7QdA+TiXx6Y7 nEiFBgQ4hObYg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAOJV-1plRZM0wod-00BpYa; Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:31:59 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <46A0D5B3-FFAA-40A3-B94C-6D01C99D92EB@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 13:31:58 +0100 Cc: Frantisek Borsik , dan , bloat , libreqos Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <46A0D5B3-FFAA-40A3-B94C-6D01C99D92EB@gmail.com> To: Rich Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:SgpYHlQu4H+cmU2MRJmniyrMdBf6kZrIgnxH+Jl3n6laacegsHH 449cOVBtrAp2lID394BkSnQrWCFX1xskAzeip4oAS5eNi6v/oZPx1HT92lygJIPA3X4DEJu uqHwqKqAwcEOKj/h94avlEH8hFua+pDQXQdF0So74MD4w8CgM7oGUcCHfA3cp80JBvTv6Wo dEQQ18+iNJRXYUAp++gbg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:IsnzszCbxfU=;V8A9UW3miERUAlzHSQnUHSNCNxM 7TYknsOnjF15V+dF2XpHjBcyn3kxR1KS7v/pHD769Lik2o23Y44xX1zE/q/c1+y6JpUttsl8r C3rCbgjGsvy/TB4UFAOC6QuI675CRjB8gGvH1UzTShHhzBMOMX/pu0qOditj+c8JhDcjeT3K6 NUXhp3P9oFA+OJblNEXJAkiOgQLyQN4Y/b9FMd1IyaCTPrkOkjPdTiIRmlUr6G+0Gloj6dyRL mP4t6MPPn+H+KQH2IKPBlkW7sR6xcLOeVK+9XJozBth8eZtFBPgUW918LWKOthoQCImuuU2eH Ss0IN4IRCXqyr0KqxrFF74LLs5sVedulSq2gOa3AyTvf47Vp1DNNl7fB7jNT2zAsI8CQCKtxn FmuQNop/A+E89/GxNeOClE4LOHGQENUft5Cy27Nkdw45vC2bsgdyAHHPWWS5548gOpSqMLEIy KwjWXKvTeFIZznWGAce4W0YfNc5G7XG6BFQVonQcvBdIs5t+cG4pwVrsHOBSJrnq/Vqg6cCWN Rhhb+Aw+kA1nfGcgGcvnDGz2bZ6sQtqbq+Ojp+QmsEsvytL/Z2KY0a6SnkplwX+PvHy4spPL9 yYv4KOFVK83y9/JHZF/kSXXb1W8WtmeGKGSYgo4/ykI4q09la/xDbwxNxHIFZ22+NJxq37DLq b6b50zFfVxVTtrQmETCSbNVFxZIVY0WhTVn6YVG/ZZaXsVqxSIWvH0qGzkPPpgyuXlxsAa5dw kLJy5o6xY5bVlc1teI34SPFhFkrB+r95N/SFJ1lmBZNfzb5tcJzkrMOv9SlrV9Inu3lu0pkFH vkHOf26mxMisRR/H85EEqH4FgoI6rGMzGT1HXfXfbJ7Od9mKocYfHJvkiMYktWCHxUm9WeroV 4g+h09mADjU0ReKsHUPToQ1YPHmRLevWWSDgSGwzrWNXdMJOgt23uh+EsaCafHc9oiXFLkOtH NlefunSKG7DUApjcoVKeeYw6zqw= Subject: Re: [LibreQoS] [Starlink] Annoyed at 5/1 Mbps... X-BeenThere: libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:32:01 -0000 I have to push back gently on this... XG(S)-PON is gross 10Gbps (after FEC you are left with around 8,6 Gbps), = Noki's proprietary (aka not ITU) @% Gbps PON seems to be abbreviated = 25GS-PON. Now XGS-PON allows maximally 128 end-nodes in the tree, so: 8600/128 =3D 67.18 Mbps/subscriber unless the ISPs royally screwed up the configuration there should be a = CIR per subscriber of around 60 Mbps. So setting your cake shaper to 50 = Mbps shpuld give you: a) 10 times the throughput of the 5/1 Mbps DSL (ignoring overhead = compensation for a change, which likely will be in favor of PON) b) decent low latency, round robin delay for full MTU packets between = 128 active nodes would be:=20 packet/sec: ((8.6 * 1000^3)/(1500*8)) =3D 716666.666667 millisec/packet: 1000 / ((8.6 * 1000^3)/(1500*8)) =3D = 0.00139534883721 round-robin delay 128: 128 * 1000 / ((8.6 * 1000^3)/(1500*8)) =3D = 0.178604651163 milliseconds... DSL uses a 4KHz clock so 1000/4000 =3D 0.25 millisecond = quantization So XGS-PON has at least theoretical potential to deliver lower latency = than DSL, but the details depend on if/how packets are aggregated. = HOWEVER the 125=C2=B5sec GPON frames can be shared between different = ONUs in upstream and downstream direction... so these are not a hard = quantisation but more the interval between control information required = for the access grant cycle... c) robustness against RF noise sources and electricity/lightning So I am not su sure I would prefer the 5/1 (A)DSL over a PON...=20 That however is orthogonal to me preferring a competent ISP that takes = care of keeping latency under load at bay. > On Mar 21, 2023, at 12:26, Rich Brown via Starlink = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 21, 2023, at 1:21 AM, Frantisek Borsik via Rpm = wrote: >>=20 >> Now, I hope to really piss You off with the following statement :-P = but: >>=20 >> even sub 5/1 Mbps =E2=80=9Cbroadband=E2=80=9D in Africa with = bufferbloat fixed on as many hops along the internet journey from a data = center to the customers mobile device (or with just LibreQoS middle box = in the ISP=E2=80=99s network) is feeling way better than 25Gbps XG-PON. = The only time the XG-PON guy could really feel like a king of the world = would be during his speedtest. >=20 > Nope. Sorry - this doesn't piss me off :-) It's just true.=20 >=20 > - 7mbps/768kbps DSL with an IQrouter works fine for two simultaneous = Zoom conferences. (Even though no one would think that it's fast.) > - I recommend people on a budget drop their ISP speed so they can = afford a router that does SQM = https://forum.openwrt.org/t/so-you-have-500mbps-1gbps-fiber-and-need-a-rou= ter-read-this-first/90305/40 Even simpler, even on a 100Gbps link nobody stops you from = setting your shaper to 50/10 if that is all your router can deliver (and = I agree if there are cheaper plans closer to the 50/10 it makes economic = sense to scale down the plan)... >=20 > The people that get annoyed are those who just upgraded to 1Gbps = service and still are getting fragged in their games. >=20 > Rich > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink