From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=connectivitycap.com; dkim=pass header.d=connectivitycap.com; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=none Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92D0E93EF82 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2025 05:48:53 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-29516a36affso23344625ad.3 for ; Sun, 09 Nov 2025 20:48:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=connectivitycap.com; s=google; t=1762750131; x=1763354931; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=mXZexzuCyT1+/n/8iExHflDsB6Pvl7j/wuRSaz+qWR4=; b=YjMMX/gD71rYOF639YxxG1WS50T6z0mV8Nu3DXrBWufrc0dRL3oq9hxfsMWP7FHZbO ID3dspp7V2lmyN5KH564op4Z1Yv8+lCCV9M77Eai3uxDSWRjEOa1e9cImeK5YACd0D4h A3TpHwc12/F90ZYz4VIkZEi2XP+9beQqMGolipa197li6weUBGs2Y5jekk0zX8qtf8rC RSUHPHTBZpjVOp3WZl0MKF6GQyoMFgrISANnmNZIW/0xZSaeIY2KN6tW8PeCdwmvv4Za ov/lhqTRhqGbicyEbAoivCTeqXbWPQYmOvqEr07043ylSYlFy93VRSnDfKOl3Ke1Zo7M Fp2A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1762750131; x=1763354931; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=mXZexzuCyT1+/n/8iExHflDsB6Pvl7j/wuRSaz+qWR4=; b=cn0n/r82MmljOBMYYqEqhu844Me44vSPvZrbb05JXh6mEDd0jl8t/ANxQ1UZIEA54M tCGQEV68ZTQFIYYiDqQl5tqZvjKa/6+NihLaQ+vXIaIxvItdda0sqa0LUinbH4VYlhev wZ9efJfE6FZUZEb1EwW1lvLh8NbwQ9t7hjnNrw7aW/pyJXhMKlEES3lVZluMhstrFhdo 7jDMAV1SYZlrVc1ght0/NxLSwRXzOmK9KJ2PlREjLjUsAKdusl+UA/4NrGyfJwgUL/Ha UOmSfowxnyKOM77un3YQeBkNdqH8XpcAJd3T/dz2Dagn5XcnM0LDEGHpoU0gUEpFEfEu xLgg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWXeMtgY7tQJuSthwxhWSkGXunyAeNtlsfKNIO94RMOnPMGefuboF24JmEeM5NmZuHvKs8yxPSzaw==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxv0JZbXLFcM4Y2yoNv8+93HEaYu0SdV4+fPtkIF5VsDsWLW+TZ PqBkQx556WTrd0/yh8NQc1jtxRyzsKXdblrdoBBTo7YMv+FtpRgzSJ2FhsZ7gmd6dZQ= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvVOvQQKJRUYV7na1RgUj/NFvXlHlZzT0ucnKGWI7cAk5RXXacDuo0rQxSQ/ea BLq7feBLnUl+MR1n6A49OtYVndQtcbLSovYRHuSC4UuAzMJJdI5UgB5FwdVRK6UPXZ+PA/g8qo2 1EZ45XLO2P0x/GMd+6Sis7gNSVQEJRuO6T+KXcEs6FI6x1p9sFZM/yI2pHOrFX+IbYFeVi6DUvl 3X/TSBcXpQlMy2lMuvU1QfcQ/NNyeIsE6WdrTYM0L7Ca9GUiOsQczEMFMjG9uAn6D3o+DmR1RmZ lZAL7iI0AIcj70lXyiUcM/jRC9dW7+fARnc5USeyGXbpHwYhoDkX5/OKaAjcIXdlK/RA/rYoKxr +7e8atEVb5WfGYvoE3mMVYg4216JEdc4CmJLT6Tz5i9ietrRhdPunU0jn8Rslwae5s/uTaV62Fq Uk6FXNeOjEuflGkrwlrO5aXb75Ss+6/fXHupOw8wHrmMc0yiiGiciipnGzoOr/wubRus5E7mqSL ucYNA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEhIdGCMDzh+rBthOeis8x9/ZpblO3MpFXjT3wAouS+i/vJeQUn8S3M7EKimHPzqEENRb9Yig== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2ec4:b0:297:ddb6:ef81 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-297e562ee0fmr105279425ad.16.1762750130643; Sun, 09 Nov 2025 20:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (99-95-167-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [99.95.167.128]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-7b0c9ff848bsm10132557b3a.29.2025.11.09.20.48.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Nov 2025 20:48:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3864.300.11\)) From: Jim Forster In-Reply-To: <93519830-549F-459A-A737-792F18F3241C@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2025 20:48:38 -0800 Cc: J Pan , dan , Frantisek Borsik , Cake List , bloat , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, libreqos , l4s-discuss@ietf.org, starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9390D9DA-3C77-429F-A41D-E0FECD52FF06@connectivitycap.com> <2036296F-1567-4B66-BD8C-3AB49EBD5AA3@connectivitycap.com> <3934C9BE-EED5-4DF7-9451-E438E0FEFE3E@connectivitycap.com> <93519830-549F-459A-A737-792F18F3241C@gmx.de> To: Sebastian Moeller X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3864.300.11) Message-ID-Hash: 4EWVNCJ2NKR7F5IJ2BJIHTEQWK2PW5JE X-Message-ID-Hash: 4EWVNCJ2NKR7F5IJ2BJIHTEQWK2PW5JE X-MailFrom: jim@connectivitycap.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [LibreQoS] Re: [Starlink] Re: Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) List-Id: Many ISPs need the kinds of quality shaping cake can do Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On Nov 8, 2025, at 1:11=E2=80=AFPM, Sebastian Moeller = wrote: >=20 > As a market realist (that is someone who accepts efficient market when = he sees them, but does not naive believe in the fairy tales of the = invisible hand of the market) I think that we would be often much better = off with a competently managed/regulated monopoly than with duo- to = oligopolies that are treated as if they were efficient markets... = Infrastructure (and at least access networks are at least = infrastructure-ish IMHO) is not something where the free market = typically excels at. Yeah, I also don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s an efficient, fair, = market here that gets us what we w. In some ways, the Digital Divide is = an expected outcome of capital allocation decisions by deregulated = companies in a sector that has economies of scale and network effects. At the same time, a "competently managed/regulated monopoly=E2=80=9D may = be as uncommon as Homo Economicus sitings are. Which example can you = cite? NZ? UK? SE? And have they transitioned smoothly to new technology = that would diminish the value of their existing infrastructure? =20 I recall that in the US prior to the .com boom, the telco=E2=80=99s idea = of broadband was ISDN or maybe DSL or SMDS. They wrote many papers, had = lots of trials, but did not aggressively do broadband, 'Everyone = knew=E2=80=99 that the cablecos=E2=80=99 HFC would never work, and that = they could not do digital and certainly not voice, HFC worked, and = DOCSIS was a big success. That pressured the telcos to start actually = deploying DSL, but it was too late, and the cablecos have dominated US = broadband for a couple of decades.=20 Jim >=20