Re: [LibreQoS] [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>]

If it doesn't align with privacy & security, what we know of physics, 
what can be achieved by world class engineering, what will be funded by 
market models or behaviors based upon payments & receipts, increase job 
creation for blue collar workers, reduce power consumption, etc. then I 
agree FiWi should, and likely will, fail.

Russia came very late to the industrial revolution because its leaders 
were against technological progress, e.g. trains. That was a critical 
juncture for them. 
https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/jhoran/2014/08/31/transportation-and-industrialization/

It seems likely to me we are at our own critical juncture. I hope we get 
it more or less right so that inclusive human societies, societies that 
learn to care for others, built from our technologies, technologies 
derived from the works & ideas of those who came before us, can benefit 
long after we each depart as has been done with potable water supplies 
for many (but not all.)

Bob

PS. I tend to ignore things that have no chance. I find it better to 
spend my time & energy on things that do have some possibility of 
impact. I find our lives are too short to do otherwise.

> IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this ‘FiWi’ coming to
> fruition.  No one wants it.  I don’t want it, I see nothing but
> flaws, single points of failure, security issues, erosion of privacy
> in homes and business,  and general consumer mistrust of such a model
> and well as consolidation and monopolization of internet access.  I
> will actively speak out against this, is bad in just about every way
> you can talk about.  I cannot find a single benefit it offers.
> 
> On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over
>> ten+
>> years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required.
>> Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises
>> regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as
>> they
>> have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are
>> 
>> also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect
>> 
>> that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the
>> sunk
>> mistakes get magnified every passing year.
>> 
>> A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the
>> opportunity
>> to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and
>> also
>> reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency *
>> distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside
>>> LA,
>> 
>>> but 100k+ people so not tiny.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> David Lang
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>>> There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas
>> 
>>>> partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow
>> 
>>>> started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA.
>> 
>>>> https://www.usda.gov/broadband
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm
>>> bill
>> 
>>>> which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New
>>> Deal
>> 
>>>> after the Great Depression.
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our
>>> urban
>> 
>>>> populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies.
>>> These
>> 
>>>> companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they
>>> get
>> 
>>>> access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city
>>> infrastructures.
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> Bob
>> 
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and
>>> the like
>> 
>>>>> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in
>>> the US.
>> 
>>>>> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> All the best,
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Frank
>> 
>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon
>>> (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com)
>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get
>>> this
>> 
>>>>>> (structural separation) right.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed
>>> spectrum to
>> 
>>>>>> the
>> 
>>>>>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for
>>> these
>> 
>>>>>> OTA
>> 
>>>>>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality
>>> and
>> 
>>>>>> factual
>> 
>>>>>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got
>>> rid of
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli
>>> Noam.
>> 
>>>>>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we
>>> get
>> 
>>>>>> January
>> 
>>>>>> 6th and an insurrection.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three
>>> times a
>> 
>>>>>> day.
>> 
>>>>>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>> 
>>>>>> obligation
>> 
>>>>>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual
>> 
>>>>>> franchise
>> 
>>>>>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to
>>> provide
>> 
>>>>>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
>> 
>>>>>> miserably.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be
>>> "competition"
>> 
>>>>>> in
>> 
>>>>>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural
>> 
>>>>>> monopoly
>> 
>>>>>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights
>>> (mostly
>> 
>>>>>> for
>> 
>>>>>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC
>>> for the
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven
>> 
>>>>>> empirically
>> 
>>>>>> in the U.S.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their
>>> budgets.
>> 
>>>>>> And
>> 
>>>>>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly
>>> the FCC
>> 
>>>>>> that
>> 
>>>>>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet
>>> Jackson's
>> 
>>>>>> breast
>> 
>>>>>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function
>>> well.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for
>>> their
>> 
>>>>>> "news."
>> 
>>>>>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to
>> 
>>>>>> emotional
>> 
>>>>>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily
>>> provide
>> 
>>>>>> this
>> 
>>>>>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment
>>> providers
>> 
>>>>>> claim
>> 
>>>>>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI
>>> loads!!"
>> 
>>>>>> and
>> 
>>>>>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that
>> 
>>>>>> trigger
>> 
>>>>>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which
>>> is a
>> 
>>>>>> sad
>> 
>>>>>> theme for undereducated populations.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a
>>> public
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> obligation to support those educations, which includes
>>> addiction
>> 
>>>>>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>> 
>>>>>> ourselves.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Bob
>> 
>>>>>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class
>>> "textbook":
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> [1]
>> 
>>>>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>> 
>>>>>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local
>> 
>>>>>> government
>> 
>>>>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the
>> 
>>>>>> worl...
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> cis471.blogspot.com [1] [1]
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> -------------------------
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on
>>> behalf of
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink
>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> 
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>> 
>>>>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>> 
>>>>>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>> 
>>>>>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>> 
>>>>>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>> 
>>>>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon
>> 
>>>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>> 
>>>>>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical
>>> infrastructure
>> 
>>>>>> w/Comcast chat
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Hi David,
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> 
>>>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>> 
>>>>> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications
>>> infrastructure is
>> 
>>>>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a
>>> path in
>> 
>>>>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>> 
>>>>> perspective.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>> 
>>>>> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with
>>> other
>> 
>>>>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see
>>> a PtP
>> 
>>>>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a
>>> viable
>> 
>>>>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all
>>> the
>> 
>>>>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC
>>> this
>> 
>>>>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS
>>> wiring has
>> 
>>>>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current
>>> fiber
>> 
>>>>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active
>> 
>>>>> component
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal
>>> management.
>> 
>>>>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>> 
>>>>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about
>>> life
>> 
>>>>> times of decades).
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is
>>> doing
>> 
>>>>> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and
>>> in
>> 
>>>>> many
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from
>>> building
>> 
>>>>> such
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> systems.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>> 
>>>>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just
>>> think
>> 
>>>>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we
>>> want
>> 
>>>>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place
>>> to
>> 
>>>>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple
>>> ISPs
>> 
>>>>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There
>>> are
>> 
>>>>> two
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>> 
>>>>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors
>>> for
>> 
>>>>> "reasonable" prices
>> 
>>>>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain
>>> the
>> 
>>>>> access network
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we
>>> already
>> 
>>>>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a
>> 
>>>>> spanner
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access,
>>> but
>> 
>>>>> will
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as
>>> would be
>> 
>>>>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My
>>> subjective
>> 
>>>>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would
>>> offer a
>> 
>>>>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do
>>> best,
>> 
>>>>> offer
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the
>>> access
>> 
>>>>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow
>>> a
>> 
>>>>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to
>>> convert
>> 
>>>>> to FTTH first....
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I
>>> understand
>> 
>>>>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses
>>> hooked up
>> 
>>>>> to
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house
>>> network
>> 
>>>>> design in a future-proof way...
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Regards
>> 
>>>>> Sebastian
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing,
>>> just
>> 
>>>>> that I can see why it is happening.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> David Lang
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>> 
>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Links:
>> 
>>>>> ------
>> 
>>>>> [1]
>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Links:
>> 
>>>>> ------
>> 
>>>>> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
>> 
>>>>> [2] tel:+421919416714
>> 
>>>>> [3] tel:+420775230885
>> 
>>>> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com