From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp126.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp126.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAF973CB56 for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp16.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp16.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 779905C1D; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp16.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp16.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 7313F5A07; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app2.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp16.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 560AB5C1D; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: dpreed@deepplum.com Received: from app2.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:12 -0400 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app2.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433434127A; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "dpreed@deepplum.com" To: "Dave Taht" Cc: "Make-Wifi-fast" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20180316150412000000_34587" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: <874llgj6v1.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> References: <1521142916.538111567@apps.rackspace.com> <874llgj6v1.fsf@nemesis.taht.net> Message-ID: <1521227052.27412047@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/12.13.2-RC X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:55:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] Firmware patchable WiFi chips for MAC modification X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:04:12 -0000 ------=_20180316150412000000_34587 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0AI agree that it would be nice if broadcom opened its firmware sources.= =0A =0AHowever, hardware vendors have no incentives to do so, and a number = of disincentives.=0A =0AIn the case of drivers, by opening the API, they ge= t broader support in a bigger market.=0ANo such benefit comes from opening = the hardware (at least it has not been shown so far tp be the case).=0A =0A= Worse, FCC and other regulatory regimes base their certification rules on t= he idea that purchasers cannot modify or substitute firmware without recert= ification. Certification means that the radios operate within Part 15 rules= at all times. The rules in the U-NII band require pretty serious restricti= ons - constant listening for possible Radar signals, and immediate shutdown= of channel usage (within 30 sec.) when any radar signal louder than -62 dB= m is sensed on the channel being used. Certifying hardware so no possible f= irmware can disobey those rules is not feasible, so the firmware must be ce= rtified by the vendor.=0A =0AThat said, I am a licensed Amateur Radio opera= tor. In much of the WiFi bands I can operate radios under Part 97, rather t= han Part 15, rules. Under Part 97, I have the ability to "self-certify" any= hardware at all, including any modifications of firmware or hardware, as l= ong as I operate the radios within Part 97 rules, which require that I be f= ully aware and responsible for the transmissions' waveforms and content, at= the engineering level.=0A =0ASo it would be great if Broadcom would publis= h the specs for use by licensed Amateurs alone. Manufacturers can sell radi= o components to hams without certifications of any kind.=0A =0AI doubt the = Amateur market is of interest to Broadcom at this point. The market size is= trivial compared to their main market. Most Amateurs are not interested in= operation at frequencies above 1 GHz, though there are some experimentalis= ts who are. Most Amateurs are also not interested in high-bit-rate digital = operation either. I find that sad, and wish it were not the case.=0A =0AHow= ever, Eben Upton's success in turning an obsolescent CPU chip into a worldw= ide phenomenon (Raspberry Pi) gives me hope. Note that the Raspberry Pi als= o contains undocumented/secret hardware that required reverse-engineering, = and the chip also comes from Broadcom.=0A =0ASo effort spent on Broadcom to= open things at the radio firmware level up would be worthwhile, I think. F= ar easier than Atheros/Qualcomm, which is now being pitched to the highest = bidder and whose future is very uncertain.=0A =0ABut I have no idea how to = start the conversation with Broadcom.=0A =0A =0A =0A-----Original Message--= ---=0AFrom: "Dave Taht" =0ASent: Friday, March 16, 2018 12:5= 7pm=0ATo: "dpreed@deepplum.com" =0ACc: "Make-Wifi-fast= " =0ASubject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] Fi= rmware patchable WiFi chips for MAC modification=0A=0A=0A=0A"dpreed@deepplu= m.com" writes:=0A=0A> https://github.com/seemoo-lab/n= exmon=0A>=0A> Looks like a very useful toolkit for experimentation in makin= g wifi fast. I'm=0A> guessing that the queues can be managed better, for ex= ample.=0A=0ALot a dissassembly required.=0A=0A>=0A> Notice at least one Led= e router works, along with Raspberry Pi 3, etc.=0A=0AThe rpi3 is a good tar= get. Still, it would be better to convince=0Abroadcom to make sources avail= able to some developers.=0A=0A>=0A> Also, ability to transmit arbitary wave= form from quadrature samples using DAC.=0A> https://github.com/seemoo-lab/m= obisys2018_nexmon_software_defined_radio=0A>=0A> The reception via ADC of a= sampled waveform seems to be undemonstrated, but may=0A> be feasible. If s= o, one can experiment with alternative modulations, etc.=0A>=0A>=0A> ______= _________________________________________=0A> Make-wifi-fast mailing list= =0A> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> https://lists.bufferbloat.net= /listinfo/make-wifi-fast ------=_20180316150412000000_34587 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree that it would = be nice if broadcom opened its firmware sources.

=0A

 

=0A

However, hardware vendors have no incent= ives to do so, and a number of disincentives.

=0A

&n= bsp;

=0A

In the case of drivers, by opening the API,= they get broader support in a bigger market.

=0A

No= such benefit comes from opening the hardware (at least it has not been sho= wn so far tp be the case).

=0A

 

=0A

Worse, FCC and other regulatory regimes base their certificati= on rules on the idea that purchasers cannot modify or substitute firmware w= ithout recertification. Certification means that the radios operate within = Part 15 rules at all times. The rules in the U-NII band require pretty seri= ous restrictions - constant listening for possible Radar signals, and immed= iate shutdown of channel usage (within 30 sec.) when any radar signal loude= r than -62 dBm is sensed on the channel being used. Certifying hardware so = no possible firmware can disobey those rules is not feasible, so the firmwa= re must be certified by the vendor.

=0A

 

= =0A

That said, I am a licensed Amateur Radio operator. = In much of the WiFi bands I can operate radios under Part 97, rather than P= art 15, rules. Under Part 97, I have the ability to "self-certify" any hard= ware at all, including any modifications of firmware or hardware, as long a= s I operate the radios within Part 97 rules, which require that I be fully = aware and responsible for the transmissions' waveforms and content, at the = engineering level.

=0A

 

=0A

So it would be great if Broadcom would publish the specs for use by li= censed Amateurs alone. Manufacturers can sell radio components to hams with= out certifications of any kind.

=0A

 

=0A

I doubt the Amateur market is of interest to Broadcom at = this point. The market size is trivial compared to their main market. Most = Amateurs are not interested in operation at frequencies above 1 GHz, though= there are some experimentalists who are. Most Amateurs are also not intere= sted in high-bit-rate digital operation either. I find that sad, and wish i= t were not the case.

=0A

 

=0A

However, Eben Upton's success in turning an obsolescent CPU chip int= o a worldwide phenomenon (Raspberry Pi) gives me hope. Note that the Raspbe= rry Pi also contains undocumented/secret hardware that required reverse-eng= ineering, and the chip also comes from Broadcom.

=0A

 

=0A

So effort spent on Broadcom to open thin= gs at the radio firmware level up would be worthwhile, I think. Far easier = than Atheros/Qualcomm, which is now being pitched to the highest bidder and= whose future is very uncertain.

=0A

 

=0ABut I have no idea how to start the conversation with Br= oadcom.

=0A

 

=0A

 =

=0A

 

=0A

-----Original= Message-----
From: "Dave Taht" <dave@taht.net>
Sent: Frida= y, March 16, 2018 12:57pm
To: "dpreed@deepplum.com" <dpreed@deepplu= m.com>
Cc: "Make-Wifi-fast" <make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t>
Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] Firmware patchable WiFi chips for = MAC modification

=0A
=0A

"dpreed@deepplum.com" <dpreed@deepplum.com> writes:<= br />
> https://github.com/seemoo-lab/nexmon
>
> Lo= oks like a very useful toolkit for experimentation in making wifi fast. I'm=
> guessing that the queues can be managed better, for example.

Lot a dissassembly required.

>
> Notice at le= ast one Lede router works, along with Raspberry Pi 3, etc.

The r= pi3 is a good target. Still, it would be better to convince
broadcom t= o make sources available to some developers.

>
> Also= , ability to transmit arbitary waveform from quadrature samples using DAC.<= br />> https://github.com/seemoo-lab/mobisys2018_nexmon_software_defined= _radio
>
> The reception via ADC of a sampled waveform seem= s to be undemonstrated, but may
> be feasible. If so, one can exper= iment with alternative modulations, etc.
>
>
> ____= ___________________________________________
> Make-wifi-fast mailin= g list
> Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lis= ts.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast

=0A
 ------=_20180316150412000000_34587--