From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp126.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp126.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95BE83CB41 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:14:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 469D03942; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:14:31 -0500 (EST) X-SMTPDoctor-Processed: csmtpprox beta Received: from smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3833A537C; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:14:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from app14.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp8.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 125CB3942; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:14:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender-Id: MAILER-DAEMON Received: from app14.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by 0.0.0.0:25 (trex/5.7.12); Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:14:31 -0500 Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app14.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28A7605E6; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) From: "David P. Reed" To: "Dave Taht" Cc: "Simon Barber" , "Rajkumar Manoharan" , "Make-Wifi-fast" , "linux-wireless" , "ath10k" , "Ben Greear" , "Felix Fietkau" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <1542813270.991216057@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: mobile/6.0.2 Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] [PATCH v3 3/6] mac80211: Add airtimeaccounting and scheduling to TXQs X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:14:31 -0000 This requires a license to operate. The license comes from your Cellular Pr= ovider, only. It is a gap filler for the Small Cell business concept of 5G, a repeater.= =20 LTE requires repeaters, too. The MIT Media Lab put in repeaters for each Ce= llar provider because the Architect specified a shading system for the wind= ows that acts likea Faraday Cage(!). Not the glass, but a fine lattice of h= orizontal metal bars a few inches from the windows designed to reflect sunl= ight, but allow view downward - Venetian blinds on the outside. Not discovered as a problem until occupied!=20 But here's the business issue. The Cellcos have to grant spectrum licenses = to the Media Lab, it's their "property" even inside buildings! Okay, but wh= at you don't know is that each provider charges a significant fee per month= to use "its spectrum" via a repeater. As well as its authorization of the = equipment used. This extends to Small Cells! Just like you can buy a phone, but don't own t= he right to transmit with it, these repeaters can be bought, but will get t= heir license from a provider (via an eSIMcard, like the new Google Pixel 3 = does). Same for these repeaters.=20 This is the opposite of what I fought for, along with others, in the Open S= pectrum movement I helped start 18 years ago. And what Apple fought for, st= arting in 1990 in the Part 15 license-by-rule and equipment certification r= egime. But I am now retired, from public pro Bono service. We lost. Totally. Both = Democrats and Republicans joined to strengthen the Monopoly property rights= regime. So did the major parties in the UK and Europe.=20 So this equipment will be out of your reach. It's patents extend the Monopo= ly - they will sue you if you violate the patents, and their cellco custome= rs will demand that these devices be sold only to them, not you, or at leas= t not in a form you can legally operate. You won't be able to sell any software modifiable repeater in any band. Gov= t certification of software radios is limited to licensed exclusive bands. For example, the FCC just ordered a whole range of handheld terminals (walk= ie talkies) that were intended for Amateur Radio use be pulled from the mar= ket because one could transmit outside the Amateur bands. Not that hams wou= ld choose to, but because they might! Hams are licensed to design and build= any kind of transmitter, self-certifying their own designs, and operating = them any way they want, inside the Ham bands. By law they are seriously lia= ble, with fines of 10,000+ dollars for any operation outside those bands.= =20 But the FCC prevents *sales* of devices to Hams that can transmit outside t= hose bands. So software radios are illegal, the -----Original Message----- From: "Dave Taht" Sent: Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 8:04 pm To: "Simon Barber" Cc: "Simon Barber" , "Rajkumar Manoharan" , "Make-Wifi-fast" , "l= inux-wireless" , "ath10k" , "Ben Greear" , "Felix Fietkau" Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] [PATCH v3 3/6] mac80211: Add airtimeaccountin= g and scheduling to TXQs On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 4:52 PM Simon Barber wrote: > > Low-e glass, it=E2=80=99s a thin metallic film used to reflect infra-red = to keep heat in or out. Totally blocks/reflects RF. Very cool. I imagine it's hell on cell too? I can see this stuff becoming very popular in places where keeping the good wifi in is important. Could cover floors and ceilings with it to. Cars could be tempest rated... /me goes looking for stock to buy > Simon > > On Nov 19, 2018, at 4:20 PM, Ben Greear wrote: > > On 11/19/2018 04:13 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 3:56 PM Ben Greear wrote: > > > On 11/19/2018 03:47 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 3:30 PM Simon Barber wrote: > > > > > On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen wrote: > > Dave Taht writes: > > Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen writes: > > Felix Fietkau writes: > > On 2018-11-14 18:40, Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen wrote: > > This part doesn't really make much sense to me, but maybe I'm > misunderstanding how the code works. > Let's assume we have a driver like ath9k or mt76, which tries to keep a > > =E2=80=A6. > > > Well, there's going to be a BQL-like queue limit (but for airtime) on > top, which drivers can opt-in to if the hardware has too much queueing. > > > Very happy to read this - I first talked to Dave Taht about the need for = Time Queue Limits more than 5 years ago! > > > Michal faked up a dql estimator 3 (?) years ago. it worked. > > http://blog.cerowrt.org/post/dql_on_wifi_2/ > > As a side note, in *any* real world working mu-mimo situation at any > scale, on any equipment, does anyone have any stats on how often the > feature is actually used and useful? > > My personal guess, from looking at the standard, was in home > scenarios, usage would be about... 0, and in a controlled environment > in a football stadium, quite a lot. > > In a office or apartment complex, I figured interference and so forth > would make it a negative benefit due to retransmits. > > I felt when that part of the standard rolled around... that mu-mimo > was an idea that should never have escaped the lab. I can be convinced > by data, that we can aim for a higher goal here. But it would be > comforting to have a measured non-lab, real-world, at real world > rates, result for it, on some platform, of it actually being useful. > > > We're working on building a lab with 20 or 30 mixed 'real' devices > using various different /AC NICs (QCA wave2 on OpenWRT, Fedora, realtek U= SB 8812au on OpenWRT, Fedora, > and some Intel NICs in NUCs on Windows, and maybe more). I'm not actuall= y sure if that realtek > or the NUCs can do MU-MIMO or not, but the QCA NICs will be able to. It= should be at least somewhat similar > to a classroom environment or coffee shop. > > > In the last 3 coffee shops I went to, I could hear over 30 APs on > competing SSIDs, running G, N, and AC, > occupying every available channel. > > > I especially like when someone uses channel 3 because, I guess, they > think it is un-used :) > > I'm not sure if this was a fluke or not, but at Starbucks recently I sat = outside, > right next to their window, and could not scan their AP at all. Previous= ly, I sat > inside, 3 feet away through the glass, and got great signal. I wonder wh= at that was > all about! Maybe special tinting that blocks RF? Or just dumb luck of s= ome sort. > > Thanks, > Ben > > > -- > Ben Greear=20 > Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740 _______________________________________________ Make-wifi-fast mailing list Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast