From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F212811D7B01; Mon, 08 Jun 2026 08:26:36 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1780899980; x=1781504780; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=1EQYDuO/xSDiCVTuABI76HTBf74ibmOxQUJxfwC8tEo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=MVVqoNTKyVPPHnBo1FlJn0+9G2+rq8KWupIjFxoNO5skChBwCFY+gdA7MGvf6yQx AdpDXlMiVDmwavZBM+UJuDDHOZxqMzN1Avxp4Yu5t3m/kN4cw4+PmjEQf4x76xHnC 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suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Make-wifi-fast] Re: [Bloat] [Codel] [Rpm] Re: Re: [Cake] "Fi-Wi is a new forwarding plane for wireless" - Bob McMahon List-Id: Lets make wifi fast again! Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Dan, > On Jun 7, 2026, at 20:30, dan wrote: >=20 > I have to argue these points on wifi saturation. It's like an = argument from 2015, it's true for devices speaking in 2015's language = but it's simply false for modern APs and devices. Well, as I wrote I ran a test yesterday, no "stinkin" OpenWrt around*, = and still exactly the same suckage (more than 1 second induced delay in = the LibreQoS test in the bidirectional phase, only that phase exceeded = the WAN capacity), and I see no reason why OFDMA should change much, = this was a test with a single station and a single AP... so the issue I = saw was not likely to be massive airtime collisions and retransmission = storms, but plain old over-sized and under-managed buffers. *) somewhat hard to pin down exactly, but according to google, both my = m3 macbook-pro and the telekom speedport smart 4r2 support OFDMA, so = unlike my previous tests this seems to be comparable to your test, no? >=20 > First, I'll acknowledge that CSMA based wifi does suck in the ways = described and there's no way to fix that but to replace it. Also, any AP = that routinely handles CSMA clients even in mixed modes will struggle = with CSMA mostly from hidden node. >=20 > Also, I don't operate in a niche space, my space is where every = non-ethernet connected device operates. I do home, small business, = large event centers, hotels, campgrounds, whole building solutions with = hundreds of concurrent users. My wISP operation is the smallest part of = the business, it just happens to have the cheapest clients so needs the = cheapest solutions. I'm the anti-niche. Accept my apology. I still consider WiFi managed by someone with actual = clue a niche, but I mainly wanted to juxtapose what you do with what all = the APs in my neighborhood do, likely none of the special care you = invest at all. I have no reliablle number, but out of the ~38 Millionen = internet subscription in Germany the majority likely uses what ever WiFi = came with the ISP's router and so will be anywhere from 802.11n to = 802.11be (with be being likely quite rare as it is new and expensive). >=20 > The issues described above are non-OFDMA experiences. OFDMA, at it's = very core, is a bi-directional scheduler that is TDMA which erases the = CSMA problems that cause retransmit 'storms'.=20 Well, that is part of the problem, but not the only one, as it does not = address bufferbloat at all. > A single OFDMA AP and virtually any number of OFDMA clients before you = run out of CPU, will not collapse under saturation on OFDMA because they = have strict timeslots. Yes, I should have been explicit, currently all I can report is suckage, = not the root cause. >=20 > Worth noting, most decent WiFi7 access points with 6Ghz can strongly = encourage OFDMA in clients if you setup a 6Ghz WPA3 only SSID. It's not = a hard rule, but that combination generally strips out all non-OFDMA = speaking devices. Thanks, will keep in mind, once I get such devices. >=20 > This comes down to quality drivers/software on the AP.=20 We discussed that before, and I conceed that OpenWrt radios/drivers = might have their own set of issues, but the most recent test was outside = of OpenWrt, a macbook and an telekom speedport smart 4r2, these very = likely use drivers from the radio manufacturers SDK, not the plain old = drivers from mainline Linux and both seem to actually support OFDMA. > WiFi8 is still a paper tiger practically speaking, but WiFi7 is out in = full deployment and showing it's power. Noise at a client is reported = to the AP, the AP won't schedule noisy RUs to that client, and vice = versa. Multiple AP deployments see the other APs and channels and = schedule RUs based on the amount of data to deliver. It'll use noisy = RUs at lower modulations and clean ones at higher modulations and it = does it bi-directionally so noise at the AP can be used to transmit to = clients that don't see that noise and vice versa.=20 >=20 > We have been deploying a hybrid approach with APs operating with WPA3 = and >=3D80Mhz channels to encourage OFDMA and then separate APs on = separate channels for older devices on WPA2. >=20 > So when you guys give these anecdotal answers describing <=3Dwifi5/CSMA,= I'd really like to know where and if I can get in contact with the = facility management and offer them a real, modern wifi network, because = we put a LOT of pressure on wifi and your issues are a thing of the = past. They just do not happen on a well designed wifi system = encouraging OFDMA use and accommodating older devices. A here is a disconnect betwen us, I am testing residential wifi, that = typically has no facility management attached. >=20 > This might be the space FiWi wants to be, but FiWi will show up to = solve a problem that is years in the past. >=20 > Further, I don't think Dave really cared where the bottleneck was, = only that there were full buffers and that was a solvable problem. = Putting fq_codel or cake on the AP's interface was the ideal place to = handle lots of things, It was essentially the only place to handle airtime fairness. But yes = the goal was to "simply" fix all the affected devices/interfaces... > including device-to-device communications, but note that he's a = founding member of libreqos that puts the shapers on the internet edge = as well, Yes, and he started sqm-scripts as a sort of wondershaper v2, but we = realized that even with a debloated WAN, once WiFi becomes the = bottleneck, we were back at square one latency-under-load-wise, as wifi = simply sucks, so he started make-wifi-fast because solving variable rate = links from the wan is a loosing proposition... occasionally is the best = you can do (see sqm-autorate, cake-autorate, purple and similar) but is = still is a work around for something that should be ideally fixed = somewhere else. > and we had multiple conversations about fq_codel on every intermediate = port you could find, each one improving the links. Not doubting that at all (it matches my memory as well), actually one = place where this is missing ist the upstream of most WiFi-stations (I = believe this includes most typical radios used for stations under Linux = as well).