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From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr>
To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Cc: David Reed <dpreed@reed.com>,
	make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net,
	"babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org"
	<babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org>,
	"cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net"
	<cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: [Make-wifi-fast] Layering [was: perverse powersave bug with sta/ap mode]
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:23 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <7i8tzx3ao8.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAA93jw7TX-k+QTJj+WkfSOA9ddzrTHNPE=2DkMDaW+ZhOXLx2A@mail.gmail.com>

> As wifi has evolved all sorts of packets below the conventional link
> layer that are invisible to IP (management frames in general), perhaps
> finding saner ways of exposing these packet types and their properties
> to the conventional IP stack - and the IP stack to the properties of
> the wifi frames - would be of help.

I think it might be useful to think why TCP/IP has eaten all the other
protocol suites for lunch.

TCP/IP is a horribly inefficient protocol suite.  Any on of us could
design something simpler, more elegant, and more efficient.  TCP/IP
wastes precious bits in multiple headers, and wastes opportunities for
optimisation by avoiding to a great extent cross-layer optimisations.

So why did TCP/IP succeed?  Because it is layered.  The price you pay for
layering is the inefficiency, but it is well worth it -- because it is
lower-layer agnostic, TCP/IP was able to adapt to new physical layers
faster than all the other protocols.  If you're not convinced, please try
running DECNET natively over ATM (encapsulating Ethernet frames within
AAL3/4 PVCs doesn't count).

I don't think it's productive to get the network layer know to much about
the details of the physical layer -- all your work will need to be redone
in five years, when the next iteration of .11 breaks your assumptions.
The link layer is where the phy-related smarts belong.

(Now babeld has some knowledge of lower-layer characteristics, and this
causes no end of trouble.  But it's not too bad, since it's just the
implementation -- no lower-layer assumptions reside in the protocol beyond
those made by IP.)

-- Juliusz

  parent reply	other threads:[~2016-04-28 17:28 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 28+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2016-04-26 23:18 [Make-wifi-fast] perverse powersave bug with sta/ap mode Dave Taht
2016-04-26 23:27 ` Aaron Wood
2016-04-26 23:32   ` David Lang
2016-04-28 13:10   ` dpreed
2016-04-28 13:37     ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Babel-users] " Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-04-28 13:43       ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2016-04-28 14:16         ` dpreed
2016-04-28 14:59           ` Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-04-28 15:44             ` Dave Taht
2016-04-28 16:09               ` Dave Taht
2016-04-28 17:10               ` [Make-wifi-fast] Multicast IHUs [was: perverse powersave bug with sta/ap mode] Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-04-28 17:46                 ` Dave Taht
2016-04-28 17:53                   ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Babel-users] " Henning Rogge
2016-04-28 18:46                   ` [Make-wifi-fast] Multicast IHUs Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-04-28 18:04                 ` [Make-wifi-fast] Multicast IHUs [was: perverse powersave bug with sta/ap mode] Dave Taht
2016-04-28 17:28               ` Juliusz Chroboczek [this message]
2016-04-28 15:04         ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] [Babel-users] perverse powersave bug with sta/ap mode moeller0
2016-04-28 16:05           ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Babel-users] [Cerowrt-devel] " Henning Rogge
2016-04-28 16:52             ` Dave Taht
2016-04-28 16:59               ` Henning Rogge
2016-04-28 18:54           ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] [Babel-users] " Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-04-28 19:12             ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Babel-users] [Cerowrt-devel] " Henning Rogge
2016-04-28 19:29               ` Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-04-28 19:33                 ` Henning Rogge
2016-04-28 19:55                   ` Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-04-28 13:33   ` [Make-wifi-fast] [Babel-users] " Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-04-28 13:32 ` Juliusz Chroboczek
2016-05-12  0:28 ` [Make-wifi-fast] " Dave Taht

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