From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7AC23B25D; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 13:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:1]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u3SHSPG3026872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:26 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by potemkin.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay2/56228) with ESMTP id u3SHSPJe018813; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:25 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CDA161FE9; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id Vbe-tvNM-yOE; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (unknown [172.23.36.54]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E820E61FD1; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr) by lanthane.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avpjj-0001dK-Nm; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:23 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:23 +0200 Message-ID: <7i8tzx3ao8.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Dave Taht Cc: David Reed , make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net, "babel-users@lists.alioth.debian.org" , "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" In-Reply-To: References: <1461849006.60252745@apps.rackspace.com> <87oa8tyhug.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> <878tzx4zno.fsf@toke.dk> <1461853008.891910506@apps.rackspace.com> <7ih9el3hjy.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]); Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (potemkin.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.141]); Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:28:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57224839.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-Miltered: at potemkin with ID 57224839.001 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57224839.001 from potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/null/potemkin.univ-paris7.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57224839.001 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57224839.001 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57224839.001 on potemkin.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Subject: [Make-wifi-fast] Layering [was: perverse powersave bug with sta/ap mode] X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:28:34 -0000 > As wifi has evolved all sorts of packets below the conventional link > layer that are invisible to IP (management frames in general), perhaps > finding saner ways of exposing these packet types and their properties > to the conventional IP stack - and the IP stack to the properties of > the wifi frames - would be of help. I think it might be useful to think why TCP/IP has eaten all the other protocol suites for lunch. TCP/IP is a horribly inefficient protocol suite. Any on of us could design something simpler, more elegant, and more efficient. TCP/IP wastes precious bits in multiple headers, and wastes opportunities for optimisation by avoiding to a great extent cross-layer optimisations. So why did TCP/IP succeed? Because it is layered. The price you pay for layering is the inefficiency, but it is well worth it -- because it is lower-layer agnostic, TCP/IP was able to adapt to new physical layers faster than all the other protocols. If you're not convinced, please try running DECNET natively over ATM (encapsulating Ethernet frames within AAL3/4 PVCs doesn't count). I don't think it's productive to get the network layer know to much about the details of the physical layer -- all your work will need to be redone in five years, when the next iteration of .11 breaks your assumptions. The link layer is where the phy-related smarts belong. (Now babeld has some knowledge of lower-layer characteristics, and this causes no end of trouble. But it's not too bad, since it's just the implementation -- no lower-layer assumptions reside in the protocol beyond those made by IP.) -- Juliusz