From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C14063B29E; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 14:48:54 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1724006932; x=1724611732; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=HvWuicuR8nD08pigcvQafnJ7DlcUxj615K1CelfGmNA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=EzZg8FXnrlDpmChDPHBeNXIIaZ/vGQQaYBsCXN3ekygM2hMz5nBsFllRlvnXdIlc jKQoJiPYlhcwkJnwzV/JFKK4yaMMue4QFExGWdYgR3dAi5hy9vQggu9OC8jZ4ZDle 3+B7PWgcpcAdonLkUqU4IvTNaN/OAVzgt8JuD4/zGzRpvsFEnLGEbsW8cH52d2e6s CzqJ6Pj4teMH89gxpqBJKGI4Wxxg/FLI5iPCsQZjtZef/zhSaUX+xXREoUR0c9Xpe 2zA7ImmongWa1TCqWdL1TAzCZLff8mGsNvONIgjDgNOj9QxF0GuJk5ubaVbWeM1U2 6rtG8CTFgAclobONUg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.112.82.154]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MHoRK-1stYji2gJ4-00BsZO; Sun, 18 Aug 2024 20:48:52 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <93639364-6937-4EE6-B218-2A02AF212362@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 20:48:41 +0200 Cc: rjmcmahon via Make-wifi-fast , bloat Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8D08AFCD-B80E-46B3-B18F-B0864E8095F3@gmx.de> References: <93639364-6937-4EE6-B218-2A02AF212362@gmail.com> To: Rich Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:DqISss+sIpS0YgNJcgaCa/vPIF2julQBI8M4VymWvmqwrD5q9Ot LBNCOo6ZmM0JEKU9YP9XVQYZoJV3QDurVqPCJCwKSWPhjyqyPzL9S9PtRpKVcllD3XQ/Kx7 qNmKHgFSNowOqTsG98avKrfrZsBHgCQShhMaVpwQwHqNcByadofqxNj7tYS67c2CFkiEunF 5Or2OUeoFTzV6TmDiotCw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:PNWgK3E5iic=;W45q+HFYFkQ5p6n7Dm5RL4PR2lf mK22b2SV2If+zKRnACpML7JIHbCj6rimKibJKYOSHOZ9SmyTRmt8QK1tjQ78w4x19gsxz7wRz k9FfGY9sAQ97qIf9zg3303JNzi8eyadOsYmx24EOGwJBFhwfJDExnUoH2wiiuRVHnC4nFmuja 2FL6ge8vcNOO3mKOYt/l864SO1vEyyJjniroA4Tf5jYALMav80k+u68PTRmdSxAezOypfYjk5 SL5Wn0Z30Gv2k7XioNrGJd3R14ZZHu2tRT98kyNIsFAB1SUFNpFpYRFSOCTZijr0WwEz4FAFf X7fcErrnxHbLVtG4bTqMg+6Xc59T7L/kcGcd7N0LUrLl8a4CpgpxLFZiDsNxC0FA1qgYc8deA n+yuPz3uWqNgGcWntTd5BWukrrhzUrK3xQR1Z7CWv3sJZ/iXniRZ93L0+c+/7HOeo4UFb82i/ rsHiSnz9CMeT7ypRnY2+kF4GB1IozbH7poyrPMmxit4KIyb3xlANAYjHoNq7nJC/MnWsjkr+E ojut8dE3XkLTSgt3fDEHH22+zSf2pn7q9dvA1ejWYLYIme1l3/W3pFjNJvzmTS738bbnrU8ZI 5+j1UAX1/GzLl+aUkhSsieO+yaNCGP1MWpVGfhCcY4F2eCEZSycaJKSvaj/HmbM10Dp6OC63N 8f39rnKtua7JDJhZqNBAZarzEUTqo+jqXVJXX5R9oNh1OSJfpwyt+WYht86eGkxLy9uN/bZIB 0o1n2f2vALuqyXMsDW9gwK63xG0RaVDe7ieakKAkQMlufSFyuzAwedhlGWW3Yt9S4cUU5icOo JonpPEV2u6apJbzKJi07ZxZQ== Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] Looking for a citation... X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2024 18:48:55 -0000 Hi Rich, > On 18. Aug 2024, at 11:08, Rich Brown via Make-wifi-fast = wrote: >=20 > In various posts, I have baldly asserted that "above 300-500mbps ISP = links, all the bufferbloat moves into the Wi-Fi."=20 >=20 > I am pretty sure that I someone on these lists stated that as fact. [SM] This is somewhat hard to assess, as most WiFi gear likely lives in = home networks (and is not replaced routinely*) and does not give any = upstream feedback about which MCS and number of streams are typically = achievable. Operators of managed WIFi networks should know, but I guess = for those this is pretty intimate information that they might not want = to share with the competitors. But a rule of thumb is that achievable throughput for WiFi is closer to = 50% of the MCS table rate (see https://mcsindex.com/), I would guess = that the bulk of existing stations will have >=3D 3 antennas and will be = pre-802.11.ax, but that still leaves guessing the channel width... but = if we assume 80 MHz channels (anecdotally based on looking around in my = WiFi surround) the highest likely MCS rate would be 1170, which gets us = to the upper end of you estimate once we account for the 50% utilisation = factor... But given the amount of assumptions we had to make, I am not = sure that offers the certainty you are after... *) I expect wildly different update schedules for routers/APs, = notebooks, and mobile devices. Smartphones might on the forefront with = some folks replacing them every 24 months, and laptops/APs on much = slower schedules.... so even if WiFi6/7 gear starts hitting some = customer premises, I expect a looooong tail of WiFi4/5 devices > Could I get a link to a discussion that is definitive? Or a statement = that is actually true that I can incorporate into my future posts? Many = thanks. > _______________________________________________ > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast