From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-it1-x130.google.com (mail-it1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 299E03B29E for ; Fri, 31 May 2019 14:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-it1-x130.google.com with SMTP id h20so17198722itk.4 for ; Fri, 31 May 2019 11:00:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GJHOOE7/cZzBEOoKm/trrnqMaPy1FkrjLvHrw+/jur8=; b=c1Ep86LRCGIbf65ag8qZZoNUuY33jmutZ3r50wmdBJ2f/9B8ESy+1U/P+nyBihJdgo HyErpzENG1723dDH5quGpX0BZx51x/H3E0NwH03p4TwjKt6CKnN3k1hCL9WJWO1ojU// jZdb4r3DhtNGYzNEXc4N0b2WlFDqkwUvk6f9QYum9dq5wKnYmsvE4RS/PjsEyzyuDSOY 4gOPtH12hbFkpbZVOr2PxxS1gLmLbhcZGUeN449vBVxz5jZGpZjis698OgMw9yzyDj43 y08h+DjsZ8UeN1Cer17adheIGK/Bc7vq7CaQudaj3eiDEu4M9Uv6bSUhW2MWJEyvlc42 Kldg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GJHOOE7/cZzBEOoKm/trrnqMaPy1FkrjLvHrw+/jur8=; b=s2zPUpt6n3LFOGhemxqhWQo0N7fjnifXMMTt8jlBx9zkvz0owFWXr/Ecx5NnBO5f+7 SZuYOpbPH5FAYg4s51S6v/zpugek8eo8QHM+m7kvJZEXqgd6GIAzBLs2Z4H4klzXjm52 ctjbj+l8obhZFmO1yTb2KJjd8ICKTAVdMHtsspDXr4Xy3E73KPjQ9f2eVLVGwqQrEJTS /aRj4kVJ1udlnXhbe3YFk+1kJeioSsij+1hMSoh+Ir7MCyVOCGQ3LyDaylyk4n0r+iIM 5t4aaFjGjgOFTlD/LvI5ptnWpAljzGSVR2AODS4893ORC+bfaBZLzUwNvTN4PqLX05/p +apw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWbnLEhZjKJK7YzKJNf5WYms+YRIwM7vnKNz5vY85JsBpD3VhU6 60TuI79vLaGhj0O8y0eH+AD+ERnzEEiDtfo8UcjorcB3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx2Cb+2FB5boyhcEDNSOTnO9bEW5JgGvA1dqXySvMqaKaA5yAPbwMY0UFnvFZLPVs7wHcdmoIl3OiPdWwrhGg8= X-Received: by 2002:a24:47c2:: with SMTP id t185mr7080957itb.97.1559325638834; Fri, 31 May 2019 11:00:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1559322904.0719176@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1559322904.0719176@apps.rackspace.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 11:00:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: "David P. Reed" Cc: Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] a thought about acks X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 18:00:40 -0000 On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 10:15 AM David P. Reed wrote: > > Interesting ideas, but these ideas don't belong in TCP. > > > > It's perfectly OK to have acknowledgements at the MAC layer. After all, i= t affects a single contention domain, which is like a shared link, not an e= nd-to-end connection. > > > > TCP's flow and congestion control mechanisms are conceived entirely aroun= d the idea of a heterogeneous dynamically changing overlay graph. The expe= ctations of the layer below IP are simple: no buildup of latency, reasonabl= y high reliability (this is what "best efforts" has always meant). > > > > The idea of making TCP the "physical layer" protocol was NOT in the origi= nal design, on purpose! I was part of the design team working directly unde= r Vint Cerf and Jon Postel when this was decided. > > > > Instead, the idea was that the physical layer properties (including "medi= um acquisition time", better called "arbitration overhead") would NOT be vi= sible at the end-to-end level. > > > > So, I would just suggest that these experiments demonstrate how to think = about making *WiFi* fast, and not how to make TCP special over WiFi. Concur. This is just an outgrowth of thinking extremely hard about how starlink might work (in the total lack of public information) - for the last week or so, over here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/brn6gg/will_starlink_have_buffer= bloat/ I'd run across much of mark's work before and he's been quite busy trying to reverse engineer it - which is *quite fun* and far more interesting than what I should be doing. > > > > On Friday, May 31, 2019 11:38am, "Dave Taht" said: > > > http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/m.handley/papers/hack2014.pdf > > > > -- > > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht > > CTO, TekLibre, LLC > > http://www.teklibre.com > > Tel: 1-831-205-9740 > > _______________________________________________ > > Make-wifi-fast mailing list > > Make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/make-wifi-fast --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740