From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 342233B29D for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 04:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6d9bc8939d0so3027788b3a.0 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 01:31:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704965479; x=1705570279; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=0G0I77jmtR4+PbXGggvairyxoGXmKppds0kHXkcA0EE=; b=Ope1jsPLtfLSPp6wVbT7LJRyNV4hIkq2B5rsYSw2EEoX0FHVp29nuoSj1D0wKDbyEC wspBS8upqAVQdjXeXhYVv1lkdbtp2w4ftPq4WzpmzZfcSRN1V4hg/EQmI+ApGmdS5zNT 0Mc6d43xwcVNxAyG87AFDeTU2xgwYCoB7ELjLpOb8+h3/IYJcOcIBRZp2qr/terqt+3V P6DKbbLrJjX+YcwwScvVFBGINMcsPwH6uL8/XRCaXjkfbpeRJqLd1QJOXfFC+tfxNXdl 3irT4dM35UsuwS8j6sHswOq3sWbdCkuMghe2z2V2p3Jf2RxoK/w1JQpcmJhIKcKxfCll v9cA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704965479; x=1705570279; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0G0I77jmtR4+PbXGggvairyxoGXmKppds0kHXkcA0EE=; b=ROmsnFEJtPXwmW0JGgaaHd3y7yYDmeaoueTb/VCg/k0Pc0MzCwqE3DvjuqoeviAvWE Az2pSt0LQOxrUyExwdBdeIq2Qo0wzjtVZp5ysOFedKa2uRV1Y2AcvCHX1we+YxLJaf9K iiVq7fQe3BC+rCChEeNsGX/+PekQO50KHLwTulOROnnUZI61+9uEkAxEGUnyyZH2kj/8 HmIlMrE9y3oAUFhOCvo5eW/0hPrBOibi1mz9waTC5LFHwwUmg0Wu78Et+3tM7VS2oeGe UeSXsKe8Aii6j1+X7/Yhw4TNEh5SAV4Is38TeYx++D/kWYUxAtLP/3XhIdC/Z7eUc3tf e/Fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxXqHbG8OC/LP3YGdiOsIUsARjGfcRsF1LL59knZxa3AChIpKOJ g29GnSkBPG6PZLtkvzht1lS693oAr0G9haZXMMi7vYDAWno= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEazmptanJC4Z2L4QRd4DugihHQWODX1ha49gtCb8iuYsZwFzqgyAmMs/M2QcsyoTzyC1Goz+8vPlhKECDoKI8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:258a:b0:19a:4fae:62a7 with SMTP id k10-20020a056a20258a00b0019a4fae62a7mr567734pzd.80.1704965478797; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 01:31:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <877cki4vxq.fsf@toke.dk> <875y01xwi5.fsf@toke.dk> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 04:31:07 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bob McMahon Cc: =?UTF-8?B?VG9rZSBIw7hpbGFuZC1Kw7hyZ2Vuc2Vu?= , Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] a cheer up tweet for y'all X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 09:31:20 -0000 i so wish more of what I discussed 8 years ago, had made it to the chipmakers. Minstrel-blues, in the end, didn't work out, but seemed so promising (coupled rate and power control). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DRb-UnHDw02o&t=3D1041s On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 1:23=E2=80=AFPM Bob McMahon wrote: > > > Well, the original context of the question was "Linux WiFi drivers are > > terrible, what can we do about that", and, well, providing proper > > upstream drivers at HW launch is the way to solve that. > > This is out of the scope of chip makers for modern chips. The os drivers = are written by system integrators - specialization has divided these tasks.= Chip makers don't affect open vs closed source drivers of systems. Think = of a WiFi chip now as transistors with a small microcontroller and not a li= nux NIC. Mediatek has had an "Upstream first" wifi chipset development policy for many years now, the mt76 got competetive and the mt79 is looking really good. It has a very minimal blob attached to it, and a decent API (with a couple exceptions). The offloaded cpu in the ath10k was actually quite powerful, and had that code been more commonly available, it would not have taken so many years and a mere *one* guy licensed to work on it, to get the ath10k firmware up to snuff. https://forum.openwrt.org/t/aql-and-the-ath10k-is-lovely/59002 The R/T OS on that "microcontroller" was a nightmare of spaghetti written by EEs on crack. I quiver in fear about even less open firmware blobs than that. > > One can argue that chip makers don't provide documents to open-source dev= elopers, which is mostly accurate. But documents aren't the blocker. Oh, they are key to understanding what the chip can be made to do outside of the scope of the original designers. > I think an open source community would have to innovate to a level to dri= ve the use of chips coming off a foundry line for a chip maker to consider = assigning resources to support open-source teams. Old chips with 10+ year o= ld NRE doesn't justify any investment by anyone. I would merely like a competent OS developer to be present from day one of a new or being revised design to provide useful feedback from the field about what ideas are BS and which are not. For example, recently I turned down a gig that was trying to use offloads to speed up crypto processing of DNS packets, which historically, has never been worthwhile, as the overhead of handing off the co-processor was far far greater for small packets than doing it on the cpu was. The real innovation for crypto processing was in adding better cpu instructions. I also thought mu-mimo (one way broadcast to multiple stations) was a total waste of time. I do have some hope for the more bi-directional stuff in ofdma, but given the backoff structure of the wifi mac, and the nature of tcp, mu-mimo introduced complexity for sub-zero benefit. Merely firing all the people that marketed that and hiring on a few more clued network developers instead, would have helped. OS developers also have needs and desires for useful stuff in hardware that are sometimes bogus, and sometimes genuinely useful. In wifi, I have longed for a tx or rx is almost done interrupt, being able to directly dma from/to the kernel layout of a skb, a completion interrupt and a dozen other things that i outlined in the presentation above. As for bogus, someone added NAPI support to the ath10k when it is totally unneeded at even the maximum interrrupt rate. No idea why that happened. Lastly, hw or firmware that presents sane APIs to the overlying os frequently does not happen due to lack of communication about what can and should be done in software, > > I think the server market & structure & level of cloud innovation make th= ings different for ethernet NICs. > > Bob > > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 3:23=E2=80=AFAM Toke H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen = wrote: >> >> Bob McMahon writes: >> >> > This approach is not going to work. Sun workstations as the forwarding >> > planes for WiFi doesn't work nor scale and is cost & power inefficient= . The >> > WiFi forwarding plane needs to be all hardware and not based off of BS= D. It >> > has to be like a port asic in an ethernet switch. No SoC. >> > >> > Ethernet NICs are targeting servers where the workstation/NIC model do= es >> > work. WiFi is never going to be the basis for cloud servers. >> >> Well, the original context of the question was "Linux WiFi drivers are >> terrible, what can we do about that", and, well, providing proper >> upstream drivers at HW launch is the way to solve that. >> >> And even so, every Linux-based CPE in existence is a contradiction of >> you assertion that software-based WiFi forwarding is "not going to >> work". On the contrary, the SOCs with proper open source drivers and >> support are the ones that work the best, because that means we can run >> OpenWrt on them instead of the vendor crapware that they ship with. >> >> -Toke > > > This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitt= ed with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for= the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contai= n information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privac= y laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are = not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-m= ail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copyin= g, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-= mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please r= eturn the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy a= ny printed copy of it. --=20 40 years of net history, a couple songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD9RGX6QFm5E Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos