From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-il1-x142.google.com (mail-il1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CAE93B29D; Wed, 6 May 2020 11:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-il1-x142.google.com with SMTP id m5so862879ilj.10; Wed, 06 May 2020 08:51:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EjmszvxnVZlVuMJT0zNeLpwYK4bcIjdc1O8zTNTxSbQ=; b=rrUVsVOC/tUzVSWv8nme1Kpc4/RQnXONv2ylj9Mw+5sbq7UECDwwjBoKe9kuj30Prr iA0ncRkbY+0pSEFqNw44XTIWilUxP0zr3exylhH2qW5WjkTbeDXYUW9vQpf870QfFWBh JKn4DP50hXAFwXyaR6SjvEpbut96/SNG6Dhg7YRD/kfsSWCKSyXj4uS5XaxXQCTGM8MV N4DrviNLGhF5oV0C4/iO7dkUdS4kuAtX4Two8qetjnkHSzEU/cTLiNZ7sMh3PJ1e8jpm 2Wz41eEfU9svd5L4n+4Aa8pdbm8Xn3K/7SLfGcdqKk810ykvY+2FMPZj2skEJlYZndof 2J8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EjmszvxnVZlVuMJT0zNeLpwYK4bcIjdc1O8zTNTxSbQ=; b=qtNCkb/kkCRQ9A+vyUWHmWgjUQ6dKiEB+MnzAi0LeP+i1u6NgUV/bY586MU1UaZS8W eHTrlzDdlHqwTAilhur5/IcnJwP8WuRajud+Xx0Z7PCcedL+zqb1/RQVViV2TN09s9Yp tHzDJ5Hgj9Hrro7JrQwWvGg+mtmhZCaj7mb6hPwzS1D+CsRUWnGVllivgA6qJPXfHsix wMf7UMvUi+quSmN/nIJhFGC4S6okwR2/hBBhTKpapRopewHO9JgzSkNqP6qtEhyZ0jKE atqyFSQ1ZCnbUHEmaKz/NXQBODfeeRuQ7jeYTMZYKes1q5y+qFwpSYBimWf/4f7IZjvf PG7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubYdhrlr0ts3zEu/o2Ltehb5z5/dFD5PZQ8Iev+7L58KtpC1hb3 HRGSMTeKMfN58d+PgIbMiSBvbmhasWEN21Az3wo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLzp7mrNdTPNQ3E+ECtDJd1++oRlz7IBmdl2tlrNG20VpbOG0zrFsFe6vKm+E3/03OooQ2IT4dV1b7wBqVTKMU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:dc0d:: with SMTP id t13mr9705994iln.287.1588780283737; Wed, 06 May 2020 08:51:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1588518416.66682155@apps.rackspace.com> <1588779543.065923089@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1588779543.065923089@apps.rackspace.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 08:51:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: "David P. Reed" Cc: Sebastian Moeller , Sergey Fedorov , Make-Wifi-fast , Jannie Hanekom , Cake List , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] Slightly OT Re: [Cake] [Bloat] dslreports is no longer free X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 15:51:24 -0000 On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 8:39 AM David P. Reed wrote: > > While the jury is still out for me on the "best" speed test to recommend = to my friends, family, and even enemies, I think the progression has been g= ood. > > > > Originally, I used to recommend the web-embedded Java test called Netalyz= er from ICSI. That did extensive tests, and included tests that are importa= nt to me like detecting DNS spoofing, various middlebox mucking with packet= s, ... as well as measuring lag under load in a simple way. But then I had = to teach each person I recommended it to what everything meant. That was a = BIG burden on me. > > > > Then I switched to dslreports.com, because of several factors - it highli= ghted lag under load as a bufferbloat grade that made sense. > > > > Now, I have to say that fast.com is likely to become my new recommendatio= n. However, I have two issues with it. The biggest one is that lag-under-lo= ad is obscured in the interface, as is the asymmetry of upload vs. download= . > > > > The problem for me is that I usually get asked to recommend a test under = circumstances where someone isn't looking for "bragging rights" but is expe= riencing a problem of disrupted service quality. The NUMBER ONE problem the= y usually have is the lag-under-load problem in some form. But all they kno= w is what "download speed" they bought. > > > > Many, many people are using videoconferencing now, not just web and TV wa= tching. And that is hypersensitive to lag-under-load (also on WiFi due to a= irtime scheduling). > > And no one seems to be aware that their quality of experience is not abou= t speed, but about instability of lag-under-load. So it's a new idea. > > > > Yeah, I do once in a while want to know if my service is delivering the t= op speed advertised - just as I once in a while measure the time of my car = in the quarter mile on dragstrip :-) > > > > But mostly I want to know what's making my *applications* so slow. And it= 's almost never the case that they need a nitro-burning funny car level of = speed. Instead, they need either: elimination of lag under load, or elimina= ting all the crap running in tabs on the browser (like animated JavaScript = attention-seeking ads filling memory with garbage and causing the JS garbag= e collector to run constantly). An analogy I'd been making to myself and was hoping to use somewhere relevant to the l4s debate, was james dean poising his dragster at the top of winding dirt mountain road, with his best girl, Isadora Duncan, scarf flowing out, by his side. what could go wrong? > > > > So I would change fast.com, if I could, to emphasize the *problems* (as n= etalyzer did) and not the speed. --=20 Make Music, Not War Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-435-0729