From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x630.google.com (mail-ej1-x630.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::630]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E4D83B29D; Wed, 11 May 2022 21:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x630.google.com with SMTP id bv19so7362624ejb.6; Wed, 11 May 2022 18:55:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9GR6mKhMDhLMLoca5wcLiX06k0RAebnqhMyG2A+whhE=; b=SR1puAhltxh+M9Jg0A1+ciVmz0xIjOxri9fvs5YOLl8lwgbvAzhpfxmJQtl1gCefcR 1uboDt8JD5/5JBHoI5Hw8VZCFu+p57JW+UA4zvKOanR0bwNQ7j0Ghdo1Itk1UnaSe5oq IY5dVycKhX39P05hKhwPIrosDV8Qk9n+9STtzFDPEm9h4XCCSVPMoZ/DURhlO1Fb4awt HkU5I1Yk1iM7FBxB/tMUrS7Kc8rl3if5ON8+TS6vo1iLmTGhA4Lb7usumS4HStHHA62M trVYT17DMVla5pnFaDpcqiXyQCAHfWigdrswkj73hHGTP3rjKuMgViFN6sDDOuWYq/Oa cvYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9GR6mKhMDhLMLoca5wcLiX06k0RAebnqhMyG2A+whhE=; b=JwqzYThv7lK2y2++D9YiRhCuwcYbJbb3QZEGWRWa2xeMPLyQet5OoTxyC1MUrQhvZN sxBzAOOHjaT73zcdysiAwr4Foy9HbBxEL4QxNdyfRT+PzKlzXHSSq7d8PQh4pJ1wk8nF ZZqN6aT8x+ltqizn05tOEIXpmc0RKIlQyCYdvL/yNu3iQhj+dU9tTWiytw00V5717Ya6 PHNUv7m3NvhcqGLbpBBvx18AwYX1+ULcfR7ZmxrbgCm2G++OTOn+qveQptDt8trSWtr6 UBVkkAwtvgJIok20ZQ5URQ6JfkI1sPxX/3THAyIM6a00MVA9N79IC9yUv2beyXYOsA59 JStA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531F6gVYXJkhycTsLLMnbHqFTHjkk6WNEUJLwKYKZCx5JZF4F8JS VWpRPX7iYXaSh/xw2ex5GSqjXlIrvUsmD1BEkyghIcEcRSc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxJdz9oQXQPwFoAYAc6bfX2Fo/SnFvZQDAvCqqPJ3S8H5y1m+3wnDJD85qvBd7ebIe78DTVsxUY3YxNADzTh9w= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:60cc:b0:6f4:ffba:489 with SMTP id hv12-20020a17090760cc00b006f4ffba0489mr28062091ejc.666.1652320552716; Wed, 11 May 2022 18:55:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 18:55:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: cerowrt-devel , Make-Wifi-fast , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Make-wifi-fast] a foundation for flent? X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 01:55:54 -0000 All: I started this proposal two weeks back in an attempt to understand and apply for support from the NSF "POSE" grants program. It's due tomorrow, but there's no way I'll make that deadline. There's a phase II proposal that could be put together by October if the right people can be found, and there are other options like an DoE SBIR or commercial investment, etc that could also be pursued. I felt, in drafting this, that with a major investment into flents PR, and outreach, and ease of use, we'd be able to train more folk about ways to fix more networks. If anyone would like to comment, it's here. I liked to think the rhetoric and the accomplishments we had so far with toke's wonderful tool, should speak for themselves. https://docs.google.com/document/d/19GPpuFG4p9uG1sR_jVW8O3ptpoBfuQJxPuo5lIZ= f7hc/edit?usp=3Dsharing If there is anyone out there deeply familiar with NSF processes, and has some time before October to help, that would be great. Not only that I've tried to identify "organizational" things that someone with more talent at that (if anyone knows anyone) that someone(s) could solve as part of it. [0] Basically the crux of my thoughts driving this was in testing hotel and personal networks all over the USA over the last few months, and gathering a few individuals also, on our mailing lists, to also do flent testing, revealed that 99% of all wifi networks kind of stink in some respect or another, and also, sadly, discovering the huge deployment of essentially buggy implementations of fq_codel now fielded as part of the survey I just completed for NLNET.[3] As happy as I am with speedtest.net's new "working latency" app for ios (try it!!!) it doesn't let a network engineer or driver writer "get in there" and optimize their code for better latency like flent's tests do, and most of the testing "out there" is reduced to single number summaries of iperf3, it seems. I love flent, it's been a great tool, I would like to find ways to get 100k more people using it regularly without having to do a lot of extra work, and the methods and analytics into things like wireshark, also. It needn't be this flent foundation idea. Certainly I'm going to try to find a conference or three in the coming years to talk to it - perhaps nanog, certainly a wifi conference, etc. Perhaps others can pursue that, too. I've never wanted to establish a non-profit for bufferbloat.net, principally because I'd hoped we'd be done by now! I'd tried to establish a more generic educational foundation (icei.org, if anyone wants to see it on archive.org), which failed, tried for a floor under cerowrt to keep it going, failed, tried to keep make wifi-fast going, failed... (and the entire internet failed during that key interview[]1) - it's always been easier to just "do the work" on no money and on the backs of so many willing volunteers, than do anything structured around it. I keep circulating a proposal for an "upgrade in place", in the hope that someone grasps the seemingly viable business models in it. And so it goes. Basically with a string of failures like the streak I've long been on, there is one person to point to for why it doesn't happen. Me. Bothering to make the effort to find funding that we could use to more effectively change the world than we have so far is now a once every other year activity for me. I'm very glad that companies like canopus, preseem, and others did find business models that worked. Me, I had basically "quit" last year (jim is also mostly retired), and if it wasn't for apple taking up the cause and so much progress elsewhere this past year, I'd have stayed quit. As it is, I'm trying to nerve myself up for doing something useful for - the summer at least - and I don't know what that is. (anyone going to "mountain connect" in colorado, may 23-25th?) . Somewhere, out there, someone else must have a brilliant idea to finally eradicate the bufferbloat from the world. [0] I do wish I could find a concept with a profit model. But I imagine the demand for test tools like this on android/ios/windows is quite low, and the amount of investment required to produce one, quite high. The mythological VC with a heart of gold, or billionaire with a few extra bucks, would be more ideal. [1] I'd really like to at the very least get merch for everyone here that said something like: "I fixed the internet, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt". [2] https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/bufferbloat_on_the_backbone/ --=20 [3] FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC