From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9F7D3B29E; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 20:59:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id m25so9952239ioo.8; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:59:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vJ78hxuyO4k66qEf0ys/p363PXFcS2DQ8zikEtDrLK4=; b=HUgzYm3JzC8t/x8GcrGlKpYCd7HfERXWXaoBSrl1amHEt7iJwiD8LUcQi09IKa0NJF kWo9XcQdhBwA6adMCZuJZoytR/mVUyOQMp588Fk+GYldF9i3BRrXdL81Rv1fBa9dxBa4 DW2WEqydfTqAh/oULVg2FEjv5Q4zg1kXABcz3I/2sfM7OevDzPGJEFRaANclfIpK9bLV 0gkTwduZ8nPCK3ef78b3aObRNwcduvKGmy7yYb9YVT4t/9hVpGRx1eBmEOARusyAG+jn s9gEZXKbmKTRGggo1UwR72n05t5H8GAADgqh0Qz+3erv4Ioj6kG5ZB6R+nNEusZjvg50 79MA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vJ78hxuyO4k66qEf0ys/p363PXFcS2DQ8zikEtDrLK4=; b=pJjUVTfjNUtSIa4wL5UO+ds+2qN+EaMc2if3dpslfDaGuo/fts1RlbOBuyq+1Md8rJ FrE97GTLh3BpWiWu9P8ObQj7dz8baaesUbrSMUtxCA6nuLQGqV9i1+rc62xiUkMhcdpN /vMe3BmakRJbkr7nuz6YXRP5XYje8rBwgq2HrYKsScCYYcFOmkc8nzsPNUPB4CecHnBH PSkMWLAevCVM86tpxi5OQMwoSSGcNGqcqMgLBVOgxm6VdploBMjUW2mvQUZurGqTH2mx 8NweskJV5kQkaMpYV2jwIDXMIn/WWUWkQmbvJkhR8NL7xe8TuSoP4pjTMXSvQUkPHEE+ Xbxw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUBzbCQVK9EKlAchWvGa6jMRY4JZx4utK3w70vmbxlvFKSFubrU gROPRjGBiC5dh2Jx2tVTit0OyUic6Lpc1ujwXkKJeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwlghSDrxY1E0uIvqTQEL/T8cqd7JV7siIplI1hKrOf/y3kIu/jgmmPm37+zr3FKaIr/SaHH9f3EcEd/tUw39U= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c773:: with SMTP id k19mr12424951jao.61.1581386359200; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:59:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:59:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: bloat , ECN-Sane , Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Make-wifi-fast] Fwd: [NetDev-People] 0x14: nutsnbolts, What to do with 1/2 a bit? L4S, SCE, or ? X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:59:20 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Jamal Hadi Salim via people Date: Sat, Feb 8, 2020 at 6:30 AM Subject: [NetDev-People] 0x14: nutsnbolts, What to do with 1/2 a bit? L4S, SCE, or ? To: people Cc: Imagine you have only one more bit left in the world! Scratch that. Imagine there is only a half bit left in the world. Then imagine there are multiple causes vying for this half bit. Who would you give it to and why? Yes, these things happen;-> A lot easier when it is between developers and a lot harder when it is to decide a standard that shall be cast in stone. The Internet Engineering Task Force (ietf) Transport Area Working Group (tsvwg) has such a struggle going. There are presently 2 proposals before for the last unused code point in the IPv4/6 header - one by the Low Latency Low Loss Scalable throughput (L4S) folks (see Netdev 0x13 for L4S talks) and another from the Some Congestion Experienced (SCE) folks. In this talk, Rodney Grimes will describe the two solutions and their prototype kernel implementations; what changes are made to both TCP and IP layers, etc. Rod is then going to pose the $1M question and solicit feedback: is one approach better than the other or do we need a new outlook? More info: https://netdevconf.info/0x14/session.html?talk-what-to-do-with-half-a-bit-L= 4S-SCE-or-what Reminder, registration is now open and early bird is still in effect. https://netdevconf.info/0x14/registration.html DT> It's more of a multi-billion dollar question, in my mind. And the jury's still out as to where this works or not. Certainly on wifi I don't see much benefit to anything more than rfc3168 at this point, and would have liked far more folk to have been turning it on that just apple to sort the bugs out. But I do concede that either SCE or L4S style signalling has some benefit in the DC. In between, on other tech, danged if I know. I'm really looking forward to the mmwave preso also at this netdevconf, as the first exploration of what the internet looks like at higher, flaky frequencies. I keep hoping starlink will present somewhere as well. There were (from my perspective) worrying things about slow convergence times, gross rtt-unfairness in either approach in the last set of l4S vs SCE benchmarks I saw, and I keep hoping for a published rrul test. https://github.com/heistp/sce-l4s-bakeoff#scenario-3 To what little extent I've focused on this over the past year, was to try and get a grip on the size of the RFC3168 and dctcp style deployments, and to try and get a grip on how L4S style traffic would actually look like in relation to the kinds of traffic I care more about. I look forward to an update. and there are a remarkable number of other presentations about advanced congestion control techniques at this conference. I wasn't planning to go... still might not... but if y'all do, try and catch the below talk. I'd certainly like more folk to be experimenting with these two ideas before they are cast in stone. cheers, jamal _______________________________________________ people mailing list people@netdevconf.org https://lists.netdevconf.info/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/people -- Make Music, Not War Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-435-0729