From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 645B53CB42 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id w204so5751575qka.2 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:01:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WnEzdg5qVNKYM0medJ74zwcARnNlBEFkr95TossiQGg=; b=aOYSVOKglz1ETZ+ln09C6gLDr77hU0FaQqv1G3EQJUqqJTwZbZwcaj0oasoroyBxHi v1ZN4ClujZLhrxac7tUI8LD67y2glnoj4QEvdbkAy6cDc6UOuezWeY2NelIrx21yyBx6 F+HKwv50hd2jjQ0Y9ZwLIhzR6q1vA+6kgXmHTkTxYY8dFVOfa/5HxWR8PUp9YOs3lz60 hrgI/xYzc8iXJMcoIMcPmWGmtrf7VKxoad9P779CbGPDfgmqWN9LIbHWr1y2ymQ1zPan E8IYLgsJqtnyoMUSMbHwBjS5KKLiBOm/mzDAdHRY+v89cnDIZKZgXIN7ODklT5ANexNZ Tlbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WnEzdg5qVNKYM0medJ74zwcARnNlBEFkr95TossiQGg=; b=BRXLFOzkuAwzpbl353ypxzwrq/fGBrOP36LtMDXS5MKY/11WqPVNEvxOu2F83qfPJK 3H1ypbBZzTsGDLsgMWNHD1A/anfAjepCXEbTcS9Fr33wCQLBUbTsHyOGbFN0GH0FkOUt hkhhFFxdt9DXbibpwFu7LGdZB+WAmqOSSrLIS+T6+1F+9QDX+sX7ygNI3bVmrHtO17vi CJgNgU4ltNX4sNmOrZGYH/eT0bv/lzIcejFkjxRSvGMixK5tZDG8jV3YXOruDiwK9HEH N8OKzFfSkr6BqUk6CwMX/KTuF4HOHWn/q3zY4kBfQkEtu3xYrug5Zia6M4FNtQ34/Zh3 +8hw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaLsjGorH1MVekQOxj2e5RwXz2Mc1sIJT4xvByjOQjVg14mDULU L1AsEWykx8TMI/EYsQsxkx506SfAymnDQOMEqtq/VA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/W0MThA5+g73hWHE1i51lmuv7+DNXFdHdVIT28mVLtLE9rMmmabpNJkEEkXtkchTBMApAJUK+O0vL5Oe1LRCm8= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:ee02:: with SMTP id i2mr7041814qkg.179.1542834087548; Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:01:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1542820640.672319900@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1542820640.672319900@apps.rackspace.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:01:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: dpreed@deepplum.com, Make-Wifi-fast Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Make-wifi-fast] Car tire tracking X-BeenThere: make-wifi-fast@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:01:28 -0000 On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 9:17 AM David P. Reed wrote: > > I think everyone who works in "wireless", especially mobile wireless, sho= uld become well aware of privacy concerns. > > > > Privacy isn't just about secrecy, but about how information gathered by s= ensors is used by others. Now that it's trivial to gather terabytes of pers= onally sensitive information and analyze it, we have to live in a Surveilla= nce Society whether we like it or not. My own thinking (admittedly anarchis= t-libertarian) is that Norms need to grow, because Laws can't. Engineers (t= he ones who design and maintain systems) have professional responsibilities= for the societal impacts of their systems. THey are not allowed to subcont= ract that to the people who specify or regulate their output. > > > > So if we know how to, or can invent a way to, maintain privacy better for= all (users and bystanders), we really must. > > The shareholders/owners of profit-maximizing companies won't, and the gov= ernment (even the elected one) won't. > > > > Which is why I am following up on tire pressure gauge unique addressabili= ty. Anonymous car presence detection is a whole 'nother thing. > > > > By the way, Dave, I'm sure you know that the WiFi MAC is the technology s= tandard of choice for inter-vehicle communications in the Transportation de= partments and ministries of the world. One thing to argue for is to require= MAC address randomization and periodic (every 10 minutes?) changes. Well, on this front it's worse than that. Any even semi-persistent connection can do you in; cell phone towers are the most common tracking means today. Google always knows where you are, and what speed you are traveling at. I would certainly like to have a gps that didn't phone home but those have been nearly wiped off the market. > > > > Convoying in the Smart Car and Autonomous Car industries is an important = design goal. That requires some kind of "addressing" but it really should b= e non-unique, anonymizing. That follows the standard Principle of Least Pri= vilege in systems architecture, which every engineer of information and con= trol systems should have at front of mind for new designs. It boils down to trust in google. It wouldn't surprise me - years from now - to discover that law enforcement already could access this data. That said, our country is not a place where I currently worry about it overmuch, were it some places I've lived, and a target, I would. Given "autonomous" cars phone home... anyone here ever read "safe at any speed" by Larry Niven? Lessons there, too. I'm going through a terribly retro phase. I got a boat. It doesn't have any tech later than 1976 in it, powered up, most of the time. I'm looking to replace the bluetooth enabled radio entirely... once I get the diesel repaired and the autopilot working again (can't find one of those that isn't also cross connected, either) > > > > Fortunately, nearly all users of the 802.11 protocol assume that the MAC = address can dynamically change, and the hardware in the 802 standard device= s all seem to support it. > > IPv6 actually supports (and IETF best practices encourage) randomization = of the lower 64 bit half of the 128-bit address, with the upper 64 bits bei= ng the coarse grained routing mechanism, including subnetting. So one can i= ndeed randomize at the IPv6 level for privacy, given the design that allows= multiple v6 addresses per interface. You can have different "personae" in = IPv6. Meh, that 64 bit prefix is pretty self identifying, and it takes technologies like mosh to survive changes going on underneath. Better would be to work towards more apps running locally, off of local resources. But that's not the way the world is going. A whole generation has grown up with "streaming" and downloading your own music, even, is becoming a thing of the past. We are tied to the feed.... > > > > This good-privacy-in-the-design can get broken by thoughtless engineering= . > > > > That's why I spread the word. It helps to keep trying. > > > > --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC http://www.teklibre.com Tel: 1-831-205-9740